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Juggernaut
Mar 30, 2006, 2:57 PM
I need info about CART/Champ Car racing/CART PPG IndyCar Championship before the IRL CART split of '96 which was brought about by Tony George.Which auto/engine manufacturers were involved during its entire history? Who were the most prominent chassis manufacturers?
Did the series enjoy a high profile (in terms investments made) with the auto manufacturers? What were the horse power outputs 1960 onwards? Was open wheel Championship Racing more popular than NASCAR?

Plz share your knowledge with me and pics of pre-1994 cars are more than welcome

Juggernaut
Apr 01, 2006, 4:00 PM
plz somebody i need the info

Mopar68
Apr 02, 2006, 1:20 PM
Sorry, but I can't help. Google it maybe.

Let's hope SteveFX finds this topic. He knows everything. If anyone can help you with this, it's him.

Juggernaut
Apr 02, 2006, 1:31 PM
Thank you very much

SteveFX
Apr 05, 2006, 11:56 PM
Juggernaut, where are you? Put it in your profile. It helps to know the location of your point of view.

Mopar is a provacateur/shoveleur and in error. I only know tons of random crap.

You raise some interesting questions, Juggernaut.

The Indy 500 has always been the largest attendance racing event in the world. USAC (US Auto Club) Midgets, Sprint Cars, and Indy cars were historically a Northern thing. Milwaukee and Nazareth are very old paved ovals. I don't know how old Michigan or Pocono are; but I am sure they were built for Indy cars long before NASCAR ever set tire on them. It is very possible that larger crowds attended lower numbers of Indy car races than NASCAR in the late 60's/early 70's.

Engines? From 1960 to 1978 the Drake/Offenhauser 4-CYL and the Ford (Foyt bought it later) 4-cam Indy V-8 were all that mattered. In 1978, Cosworth destroked a DFV to 2.65L and bolted a turbo on it. R.I.P. Offy.

Juggernaut
Apr 06, 2006, 7:42 AM
Thanks Plz post more info if you know them. I am now researching on the 1994 Indy 500 where the Penske PC-23 won. Its perhaps the most controversial car in the history of American open wheel racing. This car stretched the Indy rulebooks to the limits or more precisely its Mercedes Benz engine did. I will be posting more info in a detailed manner in an hour or so.

The CART PPG IndyCar Championship once gave an advantage in engine displacement to engines based on stock production engines, as distinct from out-and-out racing engines designed from scratch.One factor in identifying production from racing engines was the use of pushrods, rather than the overhead cams used on most modern racing engines.Roger Penske used this loophole to convince Mercedes Benz to
invest in a secret project.The regs allowed the production based Buick turbo V6 pushrod engine to compete and Penske had his new engine built around those specs.The result was a 209cid pushrod turbo V8 engine built by Ilmor Engineering( The company which used to build Mercedes Benz race engines and these days is wholly owned by Mercedes and renamed Mercedes-Benz Ilmor) which pumped out at least 800bhp@ 9800rpm. Naturally Al Unser Jr. won the race in the Penske PC-23 powered by these Mercedes Benz engines.

USAC more or less banned Penske's engine for 1995, by cutting turbo boost from 55 to 52 and then further reducing to 48 inches, which effectively rendered the Ilmor Mercedes package useless. One year later neither Unser, nor Fittipaldi made it into the "500" field, because the Penske chassis, with conventional Ilmor Mercedes power, was too slow and attempts at using borrowed Lolas, from Bobby Rahal and Carl Hogan, also proved unsuccessful.

Mercedes-Benz tailored very carefully a purpose-built racing engine using pushrods to meet the requirements of the Indy rules and take advantage of the 'production based' loophole but still design it to be state of the racing art in all other ways, without any of the drawbacks of a real production-based engine.
They knew that the specifications would change after the committee saw how more powerful the engine would be using the push rods. It didn't matter to Mercedes since they knew the change would come after they had won the race.
http://www.wheelsarchives.freeserve.co.uk/page-10/06-02-99.jpg

http://users.tinyworld.co.uk/sime_panton/fos2003-3/Img_7496.jpg

http://newmanscars.tripod.com/AMS.99.Penske1.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/97/PenskePC23.jpg

Juggernaut
Apr 06, 2006, 6:10 PM
I found out a few more interesting infos that I will be posting shortly

Mopar68
Apr 06, 2006, 7:35 PM
Man, those cars are so cool looking. See, this is why I think indy cars are better looking than F1 cars. Indy cars are just streamlined beauties. F1 cars have so many fins and canards and such. But Indy cars are uncluttered and pure. Cool stuff.

crossle 32f
Apr 06, 2006, 7:50 PM
I know this Penske with the pushrod engine very well. I have the Indy 500 1994 Yearbook. The same year Jacques Villeneuve finished 2nd in his first try before winning the following year...

I was then a fan of the Buick V6 pushrod engine. I just loved to watch the individual qualifying runs of these Buick engined cars at Indy : the low tone "roar" of this engine was just sweet to listen to ! And they were getting well in the 240's on the straights....

Notable Buick drivers of mid-eighties to mid-nineties : Pancho Carter ('85 pole sitter, a first for Buick), the late Scott Brayton (died during practice before the race in '95), Tom Sneva , John Andretti, Kevin Cogan, Arie Luyendyck, Garry Bettenhausen (Mr. Badluck...), Roberto Guerrero ('92 pole sitter - crashed on the pace lap due to too much torque on cold tires !!!), Al Unser Sr. (best finish by a Buick - 3rd at '92 Indy 500), Nelson Piquet (BIG crash in '92 practice, replaced by Al Unser Sr. who went on to get the best finish !!!).

That was the era I was most interested in...;)

Juggernaut
Apr 07, 2006, 5:32 AM
But It seems Auto Manufacturers were never as interested in Indy Car racing as they were in Formula 1. I will be posting the winning engines in Indy 500 1960 onwards

1960: Ken Paul Special -Don't know about the engine

1961: Offenhauser (Offy)

1962: Leader Card Watson Roadster - don't know engine

1963: Offy

1964: Offy

1965: Lotus powered by Ford-famous win by Jim Clark (215bhp)

1966: Ford

1967: Sheraton Thompson Coyota Foyt-don't know engine

1968: Rislone Special Eagle - Eagle engine??

1969: Ford

1970: Ford

1971: Ford

1972: Sunoco Mclaren- Drake Offenhauser prepared by Traco 850BHP!!!!

1973: Offy

1974: McLaren powered by Offy

1975: Offy

1976: Offy

1977: Gilmore Racing Team Coyote/Foyt- don't know engine

1978: Cosworth

1979: Cosworth

1980: Cosworth

1981: Cosworth

1982: Cosworth

1983: Cosworth

1984: Cosworth

1985: Cosworth

1986: Cosworth

1987: Cosworth

1988: Chevrolet

1989: Chevrolet

1990: Chevrolet

1991: Chevrolet

1992: Chevrolet

1993: Chevrolet

1994: Mercedes Benz Ilmor

1995: Ford Cosworth XB

1996: Ford Cosworth XB

1997: Oldsmobile Aurora

1998: Oldsmobile Aurora

1999: Oldsmobile Aurora

2000: Oldsmobile Aurora

2001: Oldsmobile Aurora

2002: Chevrolet

2003: Chevrolet

2004: Honda

2005: Honda

2006: Honda

Juggernaut
Apr 07, 2006, 5:51 AM
I have the power outputs of quite a few (mostly Penske) Indianapolis 500 winning cars

1979 Penske PC-6

1979 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Rick Mears
Engine: Cosworth Ford DFX
Horsepower: 800 @ 9,000 RPM

1981 Penske PC-9B

1981 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Bobby Unser
Engine: Cosworth Ford DFX DOHC V8
Horsepower: 600 @ 9,800 RPM

1984 March 84C

1984 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Rick Mears
Engine: Cosworth Ford DFX DOHC V8
Horsepower: 700 @ 10,000 RPM

1987 Penske March 86C

1987 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Al Unser, Sr.
Engine: Cosworth Ford DFX DOHC V8
Horsepower: 700 @ 10,000 RPM
Rick Mears set the Closed Course Speed Record of 223.401 MPH at Michigan International Speedway on August 1, 1986 in this car with an Ilmor Chevy engine. Al Unser, Sr. won the 1987 Indy 500 in this car.

1988 Penske PC-17

1988 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Rick Mears
Engine: Ilmor Chevy DOHC V8
Horsepower: 720 @ 11,000 RPM

1972 McLaren M16B

1972 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Mark Donohue
Engine: Drake Offenhauser prepared by Traco
Horsepower: 850 @ 9,000 RPM

1991 Penske PC-20

1991 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Rick Mears
Engine: Ilmor Chevy DOHC V8
Horsepower: 720 @ 11,000 RPM

1993 Penske PC-22

1993 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Emerson Fittipaldi
Engine: Ilmor Chevy DOHC V8
Horsepower: 720 @ 11,000 RPM

1994 Penske PC-23

1994 Indianapolis 500 Winner
Driven By: Al Unser, Jr.
Engine: Ilmor Mercedes-Benz 500i pushrod
Horsepower: 800 @ 9,800 RPM

SteveFX
Apr 08, 2006, 5:19 AM
Mopar68, the reason Indy/CART cars looked so slick is because they still used ground effect venturis. Their modest front/rear wings ran at low angle-of-attack/drag. They make a small percentage of total downforce and are mostly for trim/tuning. A flat-bottom F1 needs every inch of wing, canard, vane, splitter, etc. it can get to make downforce.

The 1994 Indy winning Penske Lola/Mercedes (Ilmor) engine took advantage of greater displacement/boost allowed for pushrod motors. The cam was mounted so high in the block that the pushrods were maybe 6"(15.24cm) long. With extra boost they were able to accept <10000 RPM rev limit. They changed the rules for the 1995 Indy 500 the next day!

Winner Al Unser Jr and Penske teammates Paul Tracy and Emerson Fittipaldi won 12/16 races, 10/16 poles, and the CART championship (DOH!). They had 5 1-2-3 finishes. Como se dice "kickass"?

Juggernaut, Coyote/Foyt refers to chassis/engine. As I posted previously, A. J. Foyt Jr bought the rights, tooling, and parts to the early Ford Indy V-8. Foyt should be substituted for Ford 1969-1971. Had SuperTex been truly arrogant, he could have listed his 1967 and 1977 cars as Foyt/Foyts, since he built the Coyote chassis.

How long has it been since anyone won an F1 race with a car/engine of their own manufacture, if ever?

Juggernaut
Apr 08, 2006, 12:11 PM
Steve Was this Quad cam Ford Indy V8 used for racing prurposes only? No street Use?
Again Thank you SteveFX for posting so much info. Some more plz...

Do you know anything about the Pratt and Whitney Turbine car that Parnelli Jones drove in '67 Indy 500

SteveFX
Apr 09, 2006, 10:21 AM
The Ford Indy V-8 was based on the original 221 CID "Windsor" block. Some excellent pics here:
http://www.geocities.com/infieldg/v8indy4cam.html