You call this a sports car forum and nothing comes up when i search racing lines?
Any sites with graphs and diagrams?
One question i have is; what changes (if at all) from drivetrains? For example should one brake earlier in a FWD, RWD or AWD? Do i put more gas sooner on and AWD when exiting than a rwd? ect ect

well if u accelerate too hard coming out of a corner in a rwd car u are gonna oversteer which is controllable usually, in a fwd car u gonna understeer which is gonna put u off the track and possibly into a wall

stay as wide as possible. try to hit the corners as straight as possible, and u'll have some good corner speed and exit speed. when i say try to take a corner going straight, find the perfect part of the apex to enter the turn, so that ur not turning ur car too much.

one rule of thumb ive learned is never lock the brakes! i tend to brake a lil early, because trailbraking can be pretty hard to control.

Both AWD and FWD allow to apply more power to the wheels directly after the apex of the corner. RWD cars have to compensate for that with higher entry speeds.

I can't really explain all to well though since it's more or less a reflex thing.

I've always been driving FWD cars up to about 2 years ago when I switched to RWD. For some reason FWD cars seem to suffer from understeer when enteringa corner. RWD cars don't suffer from this that much at the same speed, with the same vehicle weight. Part of that can be explained by the weight distribution but I think that applying the power to the rear wheels creates more tension to the front wheels and with that creates grip on those front wheels which can result in oversteer once too much power is applied. This particularly after slowing down and accelerating out of the corner, the exact point where front wheel cars would either lose grip to the front wheels and go straight towards the grass or, when the speed for the corner is right the FWD car can start accelerating again.

As said, it's something I do without thinking about it. The car more or less dictates my response.

I'll give it some thought on how to put this together as a readable bit of text instead of just ramblings.

"Slow in, fast out".-Saves tires.

Words of wisdom, only when you're on a track, and competing for something should you ignore this and go all out in the last couple laps.

http://www.modernracer.com/tips/properapex2.jpg

Taking a car around a corner is more than just turning the steering wheel, especially in competition driving. When throwing a car around a curve at breakneck speeds, the line taken when entering and exiting the turn makes a lot of difference.

There is a certain procedure to be followed when approaching a corner on the track at high speed. While driving in a straight line, when you see a corner ahead, smoothly lift off the throttle. You will learn to do this as late as possible with practice. Now progressively apply the brakes as needed while still in a straight line. Quickly downshift to the right gear to maintain enough revs for accelerating out of the turn. While looking ahead to the apex of the curve, smoothly release the brakes just before you turn-in. Braking during the actual turn may upset your car's balance. Gently apply a little throttle as you start the turn-in. As you turn, always look further ahead into the turn by physically turning your head. Always turn the wheel slowly and smoothly, as jerky steering movements will also upset the car's balance. Co-ordinate your hands and eyes, for progressive steering input. As you pass the apex of the turn, smoothly apply more throttle in a progressive manner, and begin your move towards the outer edge of the track as you exit the turn. Let the steering wheel smoothly and progressively unwind towards the trackout point, by which time your wheel should be pointing straight ahead.

In a constant radius corner, if you turn in at the correct point and start with the correct amount of steering input, you can keep the steering wheel at the exact same position through the whole turn and your car will travel in an arc from the turn-in point, through the apex and to the exit point.

With respect to navigating the turn, there are various lines you can take, but only one line which is the most beneficial. The best line to take largely depends on driver skill. The diagram above demonstrates three methods of entry and their potential consequences on exit.

The early apex, as shown by the red line, is quite the wrong method of negotiating a turn. You get a fast entry speed into the turn but safely exiting the turn becomes harder. Early apex usually have an early turn-in point where you start your turn away from the outside edge of the track and move towards the center. Entering the turn too fast is always a sign of driver error, and the troubles get worse especially with cars that have a tendency to understeer. The result is that a very sharp turn is required for the exit, which may be unsettling for the car and the driver may instead go off the track.

The late apex, as shown by the yellow line, is a safe method, good for beginner track-drivers but it is not the fastest way through a turn. This technique involves driving past the ideal turn-in point and then making a hard turn into the corner at a relatively slow speed. After hitting the late apex, the exit is very easy for the driver and does not require driving to the outside of the track. This minimizes the chances of an inexperienced driver going off the track, and exit speeds are quite fast.

The ideal apex, as shown by the green line, is a good balance between a fast entry and a fast exit. The turn is started from the outside edge of the track and the car hits the midpoint of the turn on the inside edge. Finally, one tracks-out to the outside edge of the track for a fairly fast exit.

The key to safe turning at the track is to follow the old saying "slow in, fast out." Enter a turn slowly to avoid getting into trouble, and speed up as you are exiting the turn heading for a nice and straight piece of asphalt. To drive at the limit of of your tires' traction, it is important to turn-in, apex and track-out at the precise points. With practice at slower speeds, you can learn to drive along the proper line through every corner, so you get used to the idea of "clipping" the apex.

(From http://www.modernracer.com/tips/properapex.html)

I'll post an image... Of the track that I go karting... Let's see who finds the best line...


EDIT!!! The upper left part of the track is erased with green paint because they've turned it into a cafeteria...

That chart from Modern Racer reminds me of what I do in Forza. Even with the "racer's line" turned on, I still tend to astray from it and for some of the cars, I'm able to easily compensate for it. But even in reality, if I go around a tight corner in the Suburban at like 25 mph, I'm gonna squeal the tires a little bit because I'm still on the brakes trying to slow down some more so that I don't get too much friction.

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2387/kartcopy9lm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Yep... That's it...

Now is that part where the huge green blob is where the final turn of the track was?

actually the racing line varies with the type of car, its' setup, tires, and the course. There is not just one correct apex for all cars on a track. My car tracks totally different than a FWD, or momentum car. It takes experience in the car, and a bit of good instruction goes a long way.
I have typical instructors point out the "track day" line, but great instructors show me the racing line (faster). Of course, if you are actually wheel-to-wheel racing, you will be all over the track and having to make the best of it at all times.

Vick pretty much explained what I had planned.

Instead of "Racing Lines", perhaps, "Strategies" would be a better topic of discussion. Generally accepted skills would go a longer way than a single track/ single car discussion.

actually the racing line varies with the type of car, its' setup, tires, and the course. There is not just one correct apex for all cars on a track. My car tracks totally different than a FWD, or momentum car. It takes experience in the car, and a bit of good instruction goes a long way.
I have typical instructors point out the "track day" line, but great instructors show me the racing line (faster). Of course, if you are actually wheel-to-wheel racing, you will be all over the track and having to make the best of it at all times.

Outbraking a fellow competitor indeed kind of changes what can be seen as the 'ideal line'.

I tend to use use a line in between the 'correct' and 'late' turn in with the FC since the turbo will deliver power at the moment I like it to.

When having increased the power by increasing pressure the turbo will deliver it's power at a higher RPM range and I will tend towards an even later turn in to have teh car as straight as possible aligned to the upcoming stretch of track when the turbo kicks in.

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When having increased the power by increasing pressure the turbo will deliver it's power at a higher RPM range and I will tend towards an even later turn in to have teh car as straight as possible aligned to the upcoming stretch of track when the turbo kicks in.
Yes - modulating the power with a turbo'ed car is a bit different than a NA one. It's really different in my automatic!!! But I drive it on the track anyway!! Actually, as long as I can keep the tranny fluid happy, I can shift 2nd and 3rd all day and into OD for >125 mph.

Honestly, I could never drive an automatic. Manual allows me to have the desired amount of control of my turbo pressure and engine RPM. I wouldn't have a on clue how to do that with an automatic. :confused:

You can't really, not unless it's a semi auto. My car has one of those "S" buttons to force it to drop a gear and hold the revs out, but it's not good for down shifting and maintaining boost.

Well I have tiptronic, it's fun driving in that mode let's you control when the car shifts, ok yeah it's the ***** standard, but I didn't have any say in buying an auto or standard when we bought the car (14 at the time)

Honestly, I could never drive an automatic. ..... I wouldn't have a on clue how to do that with an automatic. :confused:
Oh, I agree - but if an automatic was what you had, you would adjust!!
Actually, I want a twin to my current car, except with a 6-spd. I offered to let the wife drive the auto!:D Except at the drag strip.

If adjust means wreck the tranny then yes, I would adjust........ a lot :D

If adjust means wreck the tranny then yes, I would adjust........ a lot :D
Well, I'm thinking of getting a built tranny anyway - it's just a matter of when, not if!!:D

solitaire: A FR car, even if nose-heavy, has "balance" that a FF car will never have.

At a fixed steering input, all cars will tighten their line/reduce turning radius when lifting the throttle. This is because load/traction is reduced on the rear wheels and increased on the front wheels due to weight transfer. [Do NOT do this in a RR 911! The weight/traction transfer is so extreme that 75% of single-car 911 accidents involve the car spinning off the inside of the turn. Wouldn't THAT make you look stupid?]

With FWD, the front wheels do almost all of the work: steering, acceleration, and around 90% of the braking. The rear wheels are along for the ride; merely carrying a lightweight tin box and the fuel tank. They also function like the fletching/fins on an arrow/rocket. Using radical rear roll stiffness (lifts inside rear wheel) or bigger/grippier front tires to reduce understeer can quickly bite you on the butt. (Try launching a rocket with inadequate fins. With inadequate rear center-of-pressure to cg moment; be ready to duck!)

With RWD, trailing throttle transfers weight forward and induces more grip on the front tires (less understeer). With a car that is nose-heavy and/or heavily front-biased in roll stiffness; even moderate throttle may overpower front grip and induce more understeer. Excess power may break traction on the rear wheels/reduce lateral grip/induce oversteer. Fun to watch; but not the plan for the long haul.

BBL

Great tecniques! This MUST be stickied!.....

With FWD, the front wheels do almost all of the work: steering, acceleration, and around 90% of the braking. The rear wheels are along for the ride; merely carrying a lightweight tin box and the fuel tank. They also function like the fletching/fins on an arrow/rocket. Using radical rear roll stiffness (lifts inside rear wheel) or bigger/grippier front tires to reduce understeer can quickly bite you on the butt.

Which is why you typically trail brake to keep the pressure on the front tires, and don't accelerate while turning.. lol.. especially in a 500hp Civic.

Late line anyone?

Attaus; trail braking is the LAST thing you should do in an FWD car (or a 911). It has plenty of front end grip.

I would ask why anyone would want to corner in a 500HP Civic; but it's no dumber than trying to corner in a '67 Dodge HEMI, LOL! Refer to Bossesjoe's diagram: If you have lousy, understeering handling; but plenty of power, use the late-entry line. Kill the speed, turn, then power out in a straight(er) line. You will be on the power (your strength) sooner.

Remember, the important thing is not how high your minimum speed in the corner is. It's how high your exit speed is.

I once saw a pair of pics showing Mario Andretti and Jody Scheckter in the same corner. Mario ran a locked/spool rear end; so any oversteer would be terminal. He drove as if on rails, perfectly neutral. Jody liked the tail out. The caption noted that Mario exited the turn .4 seconds sooner than Jody. Jody exited the turn 4 MPH faster. On to a long straight; which would you rather have?

Ask Vick how agonizing Road ATL turn 7 is. 1 MPH slower at the exit could cost you 2-3 car lengths 4000' away.

Esses require compromise. The hot line through the first part may put you in the wrong place for the second part.

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Remember, the important thing is not how high your minimum speed in the corner is. It's how high your exit speed is.

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Ask Vick how agonizing Road ATL turn 7 is. 1 MPH slower at the exit could cost you 2-3 car lengths 4000' away.

Esses require compromise. The hot line through the first part may put you in the wrong place for the second part.

Exactly. RA Turn 7 is a perfect example. Your first instinct is to go through the turn as fast as possible. Uh, oh. That usually results in lower exit speed and you can't make it up down that loooooonnnnng back straight. Fastest one out get's the jump on the straight!
And the esses at RA have the "correct line" and the "racing line". Guess which one is faster!

Exactly. RA Turn 7 is a perfect example. Your first instinct is to go through the turn as fast as possible. Uh, oh. That usually results in lower exit speed and you can't make it up down that loooooonnnnng back straight. Fastest one out get's the jump on the straight!
And the esses at RA have the "correct line" and the "racing line". Guess which one is faster!When you have consecutive turns in different directions you must sacrifice the best line in #1 in order to be in the best position possible to enter and exit #2 as fast as possible ! If you're too wide exiting #1 your lap is garbage stuff !!!:D