Someone posted before me and said smth about the tranny. Well i was thinking, if you upgrade the power of your car by only say...30 hp or so i don't think you have to do any mods on your parts but if you're going to add more that 50, 60 hp you'll have to start thinking about modding other parts. I for one think that the first thing (most important in my opinion) is your clutch then comes the brakes, suspension and some aerodinamic mods, tranny if needed and so on....... So now i was wondering, if you have a car with 250 hp let's say, and need to upgrade the clutch after you boost the engine over 300-320 hp, what's the difference between a manual and a sequential? I mean if you have a sequential like SMG (BMW) or Selespeed (Alfa) you don't have a clutch but what do you have to upgrade if you have to? Does this kind of gearbox take any amount of upgraded horsepower? On a manual you clearly have to do smth about it and the only way i know is to put a double clutch unless ou want to fry the stock one. But what's with the Sequential? And after all being said what kind of gearbox would you choose? Manual for the feel or Sequential for the utility and quick shifts (if there's any) ??? i for one would stick to the STICK 8) I hope i made myself clear.... what do you think?

1. Selespeed is not a sequential, just an automatic with +/- buttons.
2. I prefer manual because of the feel. :wink:
3. Well, first off, the SMG easily handles ~360+ HP (M3 CSL) so there is not a problem. However, if you still want to change the clutch, then I bet you could do it (much more difficult than a manual however) but it would most certainly ruin the warranty...

1. Selespeed is not a sequential, just an automatic with +/- buttons.
2. I prefer manual because of the feel. :wink:
3. Well, first off, the SMG easily handles ~360+ HP (M3 CSL) so there is not a problem. However, if you still want to change the clutch, then I bet you could do it (much more difficult than a manual however) but it would most certainly ruin the warranty...

1. Selespeed is a sequential gearing
3. You cannot generalise like that about SMG - it just depends on the individual gearbox. You can get sequential gearboxes in a Matiz if you want.

I would think about the practicalities of changing the type of gearbox - i.e. will it actually fit where it needs to and if the cost would justify it!

1. Selespeed is NOT a sequential, it has a torque converter like all automatics...
3. Have you ever seen a sequentila for a Matiz? :lol:

i know selespeed is a sequential. it has +/- levers on the steering wheel and the option to change the gears by moving the stick forward and backward just like the SMG for bmw. thing like torque converters and so on are way over my knowledge. Anyway i still think Selespeed is a sequential....prove me worng if you can but try to be more specific... :?

1. Selespeed is NOT a sequential, it has a torque converter like all automatics

regardless it is still sequential - Jim do you know what sequential means? The gears are accessed in sequence hence +/- :roll:

jim here's smth you might have a look at:
" All in all the Selespeed gearbox works just the same as a "normal" gearbox. The difference between, for instance a "Tip-Tronic" , is that here is a normal clutch at work.
All those expensive parts that are found inside an Automatic gearbox have been left out, things like: torque converter, epicyclic gears and the such like. The Selespeed gearbox is built the same as a normal gearbox with a few electronic devices."
more at http://www.alfisti.net/index.php?id=67&L=1
i just found this info and i'm reading it now!!!
OFF TOPIC ! How can you put a pic in the message???

People always confuse this stuff. People think a Tiptronic in a Porsche is like a F1 gearbox in a Ferrari. A real electrohydrolic gearbox as they are technically called is used only by a few companies and is very advanced. Many cars have regular automatic gearboxes with fancy buttons, no more. Only Ferrari (the inventors), Maserati, Lamborghini, Aston Martin, BMW, Alfa Romeo, Audi and Toyota have production gearboxs like this. A Tiptronic, Autostick etc is just a crappy automatic gearbox with a torque converter. A real one like the F1 gearbox Ferrari uses is a manual gearbox that has the clutch controlled by hydrolics and computers for quicker, safer shifts that blips the throttle on downshifts. I like a regular manual, but once you drive a REAL electrohydrolic gearbox like in a Ferrari you will fall in love with them.

Selespeed is just a crappy automatic gearbox with a torque converter

from www.alfisti.net about the selespeed : "The torque management and fly by wire system is the same Magneti Marelli system used in the Ferrari 355 F1"
So you can't quite call the alfa romeo selespeed gearbox a crap because is dervied form ferrari. Of course it could never compare with a ferarri sequential, no doubt, but it was nerver built to.
So please as i am an alfa fan don't call that kind of a gearbox a crap.
And by the way i think i just found my answer:

The Selespeed system uses a hydraulically run, computer-operated system. The hydraulic system operates both the clutch and the gear selection. So that there is no initial delay while the system comes up to pressure, the pump activates when the driver's door is opened, ensuring that there is sufficient hydraulic pressure the moment the engine is started. The gearbox - which is controlled by buttons mounted on the steering wheel is a five speed manual gearbox with a "normal" clutch. Effectively, it is a robotised manual gearbox. In normal driving mode, the Selespeed gearbox takes approximately the same amount of time as a driver using a manual gearbox, but when the gearbox is used in Sport mode (engaged by pressing the accelerator through more than 60% of its travel over 5000 rpm), gear changes/shifts are accomplished in less than 0.7 of a second.

So after all you can still burn the clutch even though "there is none"!!! Sounds strange doesn't it? :lol: :lol:

Selespeed is just a crappy automatic gearbox with a torque converter

from www.alfisti.net about the selespeed : "The torque management and fly by wire system is the same Magneti Marelli system used in the Ferrari 355 F1"
So you can't quite call the alfa romeo selespeed gearbox a crap because is dervied form ferrari. Of course it could never compare with a ferarri sequential, no doubt, but it was nerver built to.
So please as i am an alfa fan don't call that kind of a gearbox a crap.
And by the way i think i just found my answer:

The Selespeed system uses a hydraulically run, computer-operated system. The hydraulic system operates both the clutch and the gear selection. So that there is no initial delay while the system comes up to pressure, the pump activates when the driver's door is opened, ensuring that there is sufficient hydraulic pressure the moment the engine is started. The gearbox - which is controlled by buttons mounted on the steering wheel is a five speed manual gearbox with a "normal" clutch. Effectively, it is a robotised manual gearbox. In normal driving mode, the Selespeed gearbox takes approximately the same amount of time as a driver using a manual gearbox, but when the gearbox is used in Sport mode (engaged by pressing the accelerator through more than 60% of its travel over 5000 rpm), gear changes/shifts are accomplished in less than 0.7 of a second.

So after all you can still burn the clutch even though "there is none"!!! Sounds strange doesn't it? :lol: :lol:

Well there isn't to much Alfa Romeo information here in the states, but I guess I can add them to my list and edit my post. And by the way I like Alfa Romeos alot too. I don't understand why you said "you can still burn the clutch even though there is none". There is still a clutch, just no pedal for it! And a clutch in a good electrohydrolic gearbox should last longer then one in a standard manual gearbox because it will not slip from a drivers misuse.

Ok I'm sorry, I was wrong, thought the Selespeed was an automatic with a torque converter. I found another source:
Alfa Romeo's Selespeed

Parent company FIAT used to sponsor Ferrari's F1 program. During the past 20 years, the prancing horse did not won FIAT any title, no matter driver's or team championship. The first fruit is perhaps the Selespeed semi-automatic transmission, which was invented by the F1 team and converted for F355 F1 used. Now Ferrari rewarded its parent company with this technology, transferring Selespeed to Fiat's rising arm Alfa Romeo.
This created the 156 Selespeed. Like the F355 F1's system, the Selespeed is a hydraulic actuator added to the normal manual gearbox and incorporates clever electronics. Instead of six-speed, the Alfa unit has 5 ratios like its conventional
sisters. The operation is 90% the same as the Ferrari's, only shift smoother and slower. Gearshift is actuated by the two buttons located on the steering wheel (Ferrari use 2 paddles at the steering column). After pressing the button, the
Magneti Marelli fuel injection and electronic throttle control will reduce the engine output, then actuate the clutch and then change gears by fast-acting hydraulic actuators. After that, clutch engages again and the engine resume power. The whole process normally takes 1 to 1.5 seconds, but it could be reduced to 0.7 sec when it is running in "Sport" mode. However, shift quality in Sport mode is not as good as normal mode.

The computer select "Sport" mode automatically if the driver engage more than 60% of the throttle travel and shift at
above 5,000 rpm. Alternatively, the driver can select "City" mode which simulates a fully automatic gearbox.
However, even 0.7" is TOO slow for a gearbox of this kind... :?
The best (faster) sequential gearbox yet is the BMW SMG II, shifts just in 80 msec... :shock:

However, even 0.7" is TOO slow for a gearbox of this kind...
The best (faster) sequential gearbox yet is the BMW SMG II, shifts just in 80 msec...
Correct me if i'm wrong...80msec means 0.08 sec RIGHT?
I just can't belive that...find me the info from different sources and i will belive you!
YOU REALISE THAT 0.08 sec MEANS ACTUALLY INSTANTENOUS! i can't belive that.... :?

Yes, it is 0.08 sec. ( :shock: )
It's the fastest gearbox on earth, I think only F1 cars shift faster (if even so).
You will find it on many sources, including officially by BMW. If you do a small search you'll find lots of info...
The first time I heard it I didn't believe it too, but it's true.

The best (faster) sequential gearbox yet is the BMW SMG II, shifts just in 80 msec... :shock:

From what I have read the Enzo Ferrari shifts quicker then that...........I've read that a few times.

Nope, I'm afraid it doesn't. If I'm not mistaken, it shifts in 0.125".
It seemed strange to me too but I remember it cause when I read that time in a magazine, I though like "wow, the humble SMG shifts faster than the super-ultra-exotic Enzo??".
Do a search if you must, but I think I'm right.

Nope, I'm afraid it doesn't. If I'm not mistaken, it shifts in 0.125".
It seemed strange to me too but I remember it cause when I read that time in a magazine, I though like "wow, the humble SMG shifts faster than the super-ultra-exotic Enzo??".
Do a search if you must, but I think I'm right.

Its 0.125 sec in sport mode, 0.75 sec in race mode as per Ferrari.com.

I honestly can't find it, would you be kind to post the exact link?

What abt the Audi's DSG? how is their shift time like?

It's really really fast, comparable to the SMG. I haven't found an exact time though.

According to Road and Track, the DSG shifts in .2 seconds.
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=546

It's really really fast, comparable to the SMG. I haven't found an exact time though.


DSG is found on a 1.8L A4 Jim, it is no-where near the speed of the M3's SMG gear changes.

Cant beat Manual Gears!

DSG is found on a 1.8L A4 Jim, it is no-where near the speed of the M3's SMG gear changes.
No, it can't be found on a 1.8 lt A4... at least not where I live. You can get it for the 3.2 lt A3 and for the 3.2 lt TT. And it's very fast when needed.

It is indeed in the 3.2 tt and in the 3.2 A3, and it shifts indeed in 0,2 sec

It is indeed in the 3.2 tt and in the 3.2 A3, and it shifts indeed in 0,2 sec

Yes that it may do, but a traditional stick shifted sequential box with a clutchless change is a F$£* side more rewarding than letting a bunch of electronic gremlins do the job for you. But that's just my opinion. And don't take my word for it, try it for yourselves. And find out what it means to really drive a car. :evil:

It is indeed in the 3.2 tt and in the 3.2 A3, and it shifts indeed in 0,2 sec

Yes that it may do, but a traditional stick shifted sequential box with a clutchless change is a F$£* side more rewarding than letting a bunch of electronic gremlins do the job for you. But that's just my opinion. And don't take my word for it, try it for yourselves. And find out what it means to really drive a car. :evil:

Have you ever driven a GOOD electrohydrolic gearbox? I have, its AWESOME.