Yes, I have asked this question long time ago but still didn't get a clear answer.

According to some data, it supports that DTM cars have faster lap time than GT1 cars.

Is there a reason behind this? Are DTM cars built differently from GT1 cars or like any differences that makes these cars go faster than GT1 despite the lack of horsepower? (DTM cars average about 480bhp while GT1 cars are around 600)

I mean, these DTM cars are just C class or A4 modified and doesn't look as "hard - core" as GT1 series. But, what makes these cars so fast?

Motorsports guys please help me out in this one ;)



Reference:

Originally Posted by maxmc89 http://www.sportscarforums.com/images/scfblue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.sportscarforums.com/f7/fastest-gt-machine-18872-post530210.html#post530210)
Thanks to you and sorry. I was talking about track times but I was wrong, I should have said the AMG-Mercedes C-Class which won last years DTM championship driven by Bernd Schneider.

Some time ago I wanted to know how diferent racing series cars competed against each other and I did some research on the Hockenheim Track times:

F1 2004 - 1.:13.780 (McLaren - Raikkonen)
F1 2006 - 1:16.357 (Ferrari - Schumacher)
GP2 2006 - 1:22.588 (Trident - Gianmaria Bruni)
DTM 2006 - 1:33.473 (Mercedes - Jamie Green)
F3 2006 - 1:33.651 (Dallara Mercedes - Esteban Guerrieri)
FIA GT 2004 - 1:37.132 (Saleen S7R - Konrad/Seiler/Lechner Jr.)
EETC 2004 - 1:48.669 (Seat - Jordi Gene)

This are the pole times for the that years race and the DTM is the first GT class car on the list and it was a Mercedes eventhough this one was driven by Jamie Green.

The last FIA GT race on Hockenheim was on 2004 and 2 years of technology (up to the 2006 DTM race) is a lot but the difference is of 4 seconds.

If we compare last years Oschersleben race the DTM pole was "1:19.264" (made by an AUDI) and the FIA GT was "1:21.520" (with a Maserati MC12 GT1) so the DTM cars proved to be faster.

It you look at the vehicles stats: DTM AMG-Mercedes - 470bhp, 500Nm, 1070kg (driver included)
FIA GT (Maserati MC12 GT1) - 630bhp, 650Nm, 1335kg (engine liquids and driver not included)
FIA GT (Aston Martin DBR9) - 600bhp, 700Nm, 1100kg (engine liquids and driver not included)

I mean, these DTM cars are just C class or A4 modified and doesn't look as "hard - core" as GT1 series. But, what makes these cars so fast?

Actually, DTM cars are hardcore race cars with a C-class or A4 body shell. They are nothing like the C-class or A4 that are driving on the road.

But, I was surprised too that the DTM is actually faster then the FIA GT. I have heard/read that when you take the body of a DTM car, it looks alot like a F1 car. So maybe the balance in a DTM car is much better, but I'm personally also very curious to the real reason.

DTM's are extremely light. Compare the ratios to horsepower and you'd have more than FIA GT's. Since, it also does not have such limitations as of the FIA GT's, DTM's can tune them to an extent that it would be faster.

DTM cars are the second-most expensive (after F1) race cars on the planet.

An ALMS GT1/FIA GT car has certain parts that must be original. A DTM is a Star Wars Tie-Fighter loosely disguised as a German Factory sedan.

We're not talkin' apples and oranges here..., try HEMIs and Hondas.

I couldn't resist.

You answered your own questions man......

It you look at the vehicles stats: DTM AMG-Mercedes - 470bhp, 500Nm, 1070kg (driver included)
FIA GT (Maserati MC12 GT1) - 630bhp, 650Nm, 1335kg (engine liquids and driver not included)
FIA GT (Aston Martin DBR9) - 600bhp, 700Nm, 1100kg (engine liquids and driver not included)

DTM cars are the second-most expensive (after F1) race cars on the planet.
Wow, dude that is very serious statement. Where are LMP1, LMP2 cars then?

Wow, dude that is very serious statement. Where are LMP1, LMP2 cars then?

Actually, DTM cars are cheaper than GT1 series car I believe. I saw CLK DTM (race one, not the street legal one) sold at 300,000 GBP, which is even cheaper than street supercars like enzo! Hell, I'd take CLK DTM over enzo anyday..

Anyways,, the CLK DTM cars had MR layout unlike CLK which has FR

making a CLK DTM car MR, is done by relocation the engine about 4-6 inches back, nothing TOO amazing, but it calls for a much more balance car..

Now think about it..If Merc can make the normal CLK handle so great with that engine weighting the front down, if you threw that engine closer to the middle you'd have a grip monster on your hands

Actually, DTM cars are cheaper than GT1 series car I believe. I saw CLK DTM (race one, not the street legal one) sold at 300,000 GBP, which is even cheaper than street supercars like enzo! Hell, I'd take CLK DTM over enzo anyday..

Anyways,, the CLK DTM cars had MR layout unlike CLK which has FR
Think about it, its a second hand! and it has alot of mileage on it probably.

DTM cars are the second-most expensive (after F1) race cars on the planet.

Does that include R&D, running and damage repair costs? Or is that just outright (at, say, auctions compared to other cars)?

Does that include R&D, running and damage repair costs? Or is that just outright (at, say, auctions compared to other cars)?
I think he's trying to say, the developement of the car and the making of the car is second to F1 in expenses. Correct me if i'm wrong.

All those F1 cars or LMP1 don't feel like real cars because they don't have closed cockpit. On the other hand, DTM or GT1 looks more friendly... My point. is . none. :)

All those F1 cars or LMP1 don't feel like real cars because they don't have closed cockpit. On the other hand, DTM or GT1 looks more friendly... My point. is . none. :)
Practically, anything on four wheels is a car. So how are they not a REAL CAR? Caparo T1 is the closest thing to Open wheel street legal car.

Mclaren, what about the Atom and Westfiled and Radicals?

Practically, anything on four wheels is a car. So how are they not a REAL CAR? Caparo T1 is the closest thing to Open wheel street legal car.

Ok, I meant real cars as in those we saw from childhood, the family cars with door and ceiling. If my parents' car was sth like Aerial Atom, maybe my perspective on real car has changed :D

Anyways that was my personal view so please don't be offended by it or anythign.

If you take times from super touring cars back in the late 90,s these cars are just as quick as the current level of gt3 cars. The rules dont allow the full speed with in these cars. In england we had thunder salons at brands hatch, with very low rules limit and there modded MK2 escorts where as fast as ex v8 supercars from down under

this thread might be of some help to answer your question

http://www.sportscarforums.com/f11/dtm-v-fia-gt1-20568.html

Pancake..there is no question he answered it in his own post..

People just can't seem to get it.

Cool Gp2 cars are faster than DTM. Thats interesting. GP2 is just a brilliant series.

i wonder where A1 GP cars would come in there

DTM isnt even a basic street car modded into a racecar. They just put a shell over their cars that have nothing to do with it. The engine is shifted further back, so it handles like a maniac. The driver is almost sitting at the back seat when they are driving.

I looked into this at work today.

It would appear that DTM cars are faster because they are engineered to race, whereas a GT1 car is 'developed' to race. I read that a DTM car is a 'silluoette' of its former self, being virtually all carbon fibre monocoque frame underneath with the already aformentioned MR layout, racing gearboxes and race developed engines. GT1 cars need to be constructed from a car that you or I could buy ourselves. The car is then developed into a racecar, with panels being replaced and aero packages added, but essentially still have the ability to be stripped back to a factory road car.

As a side note, who was aware that all DTM cars must use the same aero package?

Chris.

C.A.R. pretty much got it right.

A DTM car is a megabucks "silhouette" race car with a composite/alloy chassis. It "looks" somewhat like a given carmaker's sedan/saloon. Except for a marque badge front/rear; there's not a thing on it related to the alledged "parent" car.

A GT car is a "development/modification" of a production car.

Put one example of each in the garage on jackstands minus bodywork and even a Goodyear store tire changer could tell the difference.

svspeedy's question about LMP1/2 cars deserves a response:

My comment about costs dates from the late 90's; about the time that Doc Panoz created ALMS and screwed up Road Atlanta for real race fans (wiki Road Atlanta if you think I am alone in this opinion). It comes from a friend (ex-FV racer) and longtime race camp crew ringleader who spent 2 months in the Sant' Agata Bolognese Lamborghini factory for tech training. This was also about the time that VW/Audi bought Lambo.

Practically, anything on four wheels is a car. So how are they not a REAL CAR? Caparo T1 is the closest thing to Open wheel street legal car.

Just trying to see how 4 wheels define a car really :-k

http://www.skater-schuhe.de/images/micro_tfs_pink.jpg

Anyways, C.A.R. summed it up pretty much.

DTM cars are light and about as heavily single-purpose created as formula 1 cars.

If you look at one from up close you will see that they have striking resemblance to open wheel racing cars with a shell over them.
Significantly lower car weight does a lot for lap times.

Just trying to see how 4 wheels define a car really :-k

http://www.skater-schuhe.de/images/micro_tfs_pink.jpg

Anyways, C.A.R. summed it up pretty much.

DTM cars are light and about as heavily single-purpose created as formula 1 cars.

If you look at one from up close you will see that they have striking resemblance to open wheel racing cars with a shell over them.
Significantly lower car weight does a lot for lap times.
4 wheels with a motor silly.

4 wheels with a motor silly.

I already thought something along those lines and in that respect you're quite (almost) right. I just could not ignore the opportunity really :rolleyes:

EDIT:: ever seen this Viper engine powered "bike" by any chance?
Looked like a b**** to drive really but quite an interesting idea.

Solitair, you speaking of the Tomahawk?

The V10 powered 4 wheeled motorcycle?

Claimed 300MPH top speed with a 3 speed transmission...

Only problem was, the bike couldn't turn and people were scared to even try it..(who wants a Viper v10 landing on their leg)

That's the one indeed :D

4 wheels with a motor silly.


Did anyone see those roller blades that got intercepted by the United Kingdom Customs which had a jet engine on one boot and a controller you held? Apparently they were a 'bit' dangerous...

Chris

I like the FIA's definition of a car/automobile:

Automobile:
A land vehicle running on at least four non-aligned complete
wheels, of which at least two are used for steering and at least two
for propulsion.

Land vehicle:
A locomotive device propelled by its own means, moving by
constantly taking real support on the earth's surface, of which the
propulsion and steering are under the control of a driver aboard the
vehicle.

In other words, an object which has 4 wheels, has a means of self-propulsion, is controlled by a person on the object, 2 steering wheels and 2 powered wheels is technically what one can consider being a car.