***Just added a video - check bottom of post or last page for link***

Hey all, I just got back last night from Carolina Motorsports Park (South Carolina) where I got my first seat time in the new Formula Atlantics that my dad and I just had finished. Man these things are awesome!!

Pics below, if you don't want to read about the day or the cars, ust skip all this!

We had there 3 Atlantics-
2 new ones (Swift 014's), and 1 old one (Ralt RT40/41)
The idea was to use the day as a test to see what needed to be done on the new ones to be ready for the upcoming season. We also wanted to compare the Swifts (one mine, one dad's) to the tried and true Ralt that my dad has been racing for years.

The day went very well. It was me, my dad, a few "racing" friends who brought their cars, and oh yea, Sam Hornish Jr. (Indy 500 winner). The way that happened was Penske Racing was sopposed to do their testing the week before, and got rained out. So they called up my dad and asked if they could get in with our test day. They were racing a NASCAR Dodge Charger, with Sam Hornish Jr. at the wheel.

In the morning it was a bit damp, and we even had a light drizzle at times, but soon things dried up completely and stayed dry for the rest of the day. It being my first time in the car, I went REALLY slow at first. My first lap times were around 1:45 (minutes) on the 2.23 mile course. As soon as I got a bit more comfortable with the car and track (first time on this track), I dipped into the low 1:30's, and for the latter half of the day I was running 1:28's and 1:27's. My best time of the day was a 1:27.3. I was very happy with that. For the most part, my dad was running about the same, except one lap he got a 1:26.5, which is damn good considering the track record for FA is a 1:25.3!

Sam Hornish could not keep up in his NASCAR, they were running 1:40's I believe. I never would have thought the Atlantics (250 hp) would be THAT much faster than the 800-whatever hp NASCAR. I thought each car would have a pretty similar pace on the track, but make that pace up in different ways (Atlantics would be much better in turns and under braking, NASCAR would be much quicker in a straight line). It turned out that the NASCAR really did not pull nearly as hard away from me as I thought on the straights. In fact, I was keeping up pretty good, and killed the thing in any turns and under braking.

Anyway, the day went very good. We got what we needed to done, and had a great time. We found out what needs to be changed on the cars to be ready and competitive in the SCCA races. While I never drove the Ralt (older FA car we had there), my dad drove his (new) Swift and the Ralt back to back and said the Swift is a much easier car to drive. It felt much more smooth, while the Ralt felt twitchy in comparison. The shifting mechanism in the Swifts are much better and easier to use. (it is a Sequential Manual transmission, with no-lift shift on upshifts)

EDIT: My dad just sent me a video he took of me driving. It was from the beginning of the day, maybe my second time in the car. This was before I figured out how to make smooth downshifts with the SMG, it was a bit tricky at first. That is why you can hear me kind of bog as I exit some corners, I couldn't get it in a low enough gear.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Swit-014-Formula-Atlantic-test-day---1st-time-in-c_156982.htm

Well, how about some pics!

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0152.jpg
My car is the white one w/ blue, my dad's is the red one.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0151.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0155.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0156.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0159.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0154.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0160.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0166.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0167.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0169.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0170.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0168.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0158.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0157.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0172.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0174.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0149.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0150.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0143.jpg

Here is the older one, the Ralt RT40/41
Yes, it is the same color combo as my dad's new one. Why you ask? So my mom doesn't know he bought a new one! :eek:
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CIMG0161.jpg

Damn, I just realized I was so excited about the new cars, that was the only good pic I got of the Ralt! Here are some more old pics of it. I guess I don't have any with the engine cover off, or of the cockpit. Must have been lost somewhere.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/PIC_0014.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/PIC_0007.jpg
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/PIC_0006.jpg

Here is a pic of the track:
http://www.carolinamotorsportspark.com/AerialPhoto.gif
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/CarolinaMTSPRTSpark.jpg
You can see the configuration we ran; I Xed off the part that we did not run.

You lucky, lucky man. Those things look bloody amazing - and the track! 250 bhp in something that small and light is a huge amount!

You lucky, lucky man. Those things look bloody amazing - and the track! 250 bhp in something that small and light is a huge amount!

yep :D

250 hp in a 1300 lb car! They go pretty damn good!
They are actually very peaky, below 7K rpm you wouldn't think much of it, but once in the powerband, hold on. We have them set up to rev up to 10,500 RPM. It sounds so awesome! Like mini F1 cars

yep :D

250 hp in a 1300 lb car! They go pretty damn good!
They are actually very peaky, below 7K rpm you wouldn't think much of it, but once in the powerband, hold on. We have them set up to rev up to 10,500 RPM. It sounds so awesome! Like mini F1 cars

Just did some research to compare them to Formula 3 cars, which weight about 500 kg and have about 200 bhp - incredibly similar - interesting to see the two side by side?

I am really jealous right now. Those things look like a lot of fun to drive.

How would you get into racing those? Do you need to be a Hamilton in the making to get a drive or is it the type of thing where anyone can do it if they have the money and enthusiasm?

Just did some research to compare them to Formula 3 cars, which weight about 500 kg and have about 200 bhp - incredibly similar - interesting to see the two side by side?

I actually am not very familiar with Formula 3 cars, at first I thought you meant F3000 cars, but that cannot be, since they have way more than 200 bhp.
Doing a quick search of the cars shows that they do seem to be quite similar power to weight wise, however I do not know if these cars have tunnels underneath. If they do, then yes, they are very like a Formula Atlantic. If not, a FA would most likely be significantly faster since it would make a lot more downforce. Even so, I would put my money on the FA due to its higher power, yet still comparable weights. The class minimum for FA I believe is 1,225 lbs, or ~555 kg. The reason my car's minimum weight must be 1300 is because I have 3 weight penalties, each costing me 25 lbs - carbon fiber tub, fuel injection, and sequential manual transmission.

I am really jealous right now. Those things look like a lot of fun to drive.

How would you get into racing those? Do you need to be a Hamilton in the making to get a drive or is it the type of thing where anyone can do it if they have the money and enthusiasm?

Yes, they are an absolute blast to drive.

I got into them with the help of my dad, who has been racing for many years. We now both race side by side in this class. So that is one way, yes money and enthusiasm.

You are correct about the other option as well. I race in club racing, but there is also a professional series for Atlantics as well. It is called the ChampCar Atlantic Series, or something along those lines, and it is very often a stepping stone to bigger and better things. In the pro series, they use a newer chassis, called the Swift 016. It is a bit heavier than mine (014), but it has a newer, more powerful Mazda-Cosworth engine. I believe they are 2.3L and produce 300 hp. They also have SMG's. To get in this, yes, you must be a talented driver in order to be picked up by a race team.

Wow, you're a lucky man. Looks like fun. I'm loving the red one with all the TRD logos. How long do those Formula Atlantic engines usually last?

I think the full name is called Toyota Atlantics.

Very cool man, I would love to see some pictures of those things in action!

How are they to drive? What's it feel like? I'm very jealous!

I think the full name is called Toyota Atlantics.

The names really are interchangeable, for the most part. The pro series from a year or two ago was called the Toyota Atlantic Series or something like that, but in SCCA club racing, the class is technically called a Formula Atlantic. This is because the Toyota powerplant is not the only engine that is legal to use in the class. Competitors also use Mazda rotary engines, and even 4 cylinder Cosworths.

Very cool man, I would love to see some pictures of those things in action!

How are they to drive? What's it feel like? I'm very jealous!

When I get some time I will check to see what action pics I have. Unfortunately, I don't have any of the new car but may have some of the older one.

Driving these things is unlike anything else you have ever driven. The grip and braking levels on them are just absolutely mind blowing. Unlike road cars, and cars without downforce, you do not ease on the brakes for max performance. At the end of a straight you stand on the brake as hard as you can - the tires will not lock up, due to the huge amount of DF it is generating. As you slow down, however, you must ease off the brake or else the tires will lock, since you are going slower, and therefore making less DF. Yesterday, at the end of one of the straights, I was going about 135-140 mph. In a matter of maybe 2 seconds I was going 40 mph. Those really are conservative numbers, too.
Your first experience in a car that makes downforce is very weird. You may find your self loosing grip in a certain corner, and your first instinct tells you that you are going too fast. In reality, however, you must pick up the pace through the turn and trust your downforce to give you more grip than if you are going slower. It is an eerie feeling at first, but you just have to take baby steps, moving up a level each time to explore the cars limits. It still blows my mind how blindingly fast I can go through an entire turn. In fact, turns that I was braking for in the beginning of the day, I later progressed to merely lifting the throttle, and soon I was completely flat on the throttle through the whole turn.
With the amazing grip and braking capabilities the car offers, you find yourself braking later into corners, and carrying more speed you thought was possible through the corner.
If I had to say the biggest challenge of driving one of these cars fast, it would easily be learning to trust the downforce.

That give you a slight idea of what it is like to drive it? ;)

What racing series do you race???

...Because the last time I watched a race, I remember the words "atlantic" something, so, yeah. Just checking if you raced in the last SJGP, not sure if the SCCA had anything to do with the SJGP...


And niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice cars! I'd go crazy over having a race car! And that track looks like it has a lot of overtaking opportunites!.....

What racing series do you race???

...Because the last time I watched a race, I remember the words "atlantic" something, so, yeah. Just checking if you raced in the last SJGP, not sure if the SCCA had anything to do with the SJGP...

And niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice cars! I'd go crazy over having a race car! And that track looks like it has a lot of overtaking opportunites!.....

You may have heard Atlantic, Yes, but it probably was had nothing to do with the SCCA. They were probably referring to the ChampCar Atlantic pro series, which uses newer cars with different, Mazda-Cosworth engines.

And thanks! Yea, they are fantastic cars. The track was very nice, it was my 1st time there. It is a relatively small track, but it is deff a fun course. It has some elevation changes in the first part, which makes things interesting too.

Those Atlantics are gorgeous. So clean, lovely lines.

I love the design of the lower open wheeler class cars. As much as I love the design of Formula 1 cars, the various aero devices and flick ups and what not really distract you from the underlying shapes an open-wheeler has.

Would have loved to see the cars go round!

You may have heard Atlantic, Yes, but it probably was had nothing to do with the SCCA. They were probably referring to the ChampCar Atlantic pro series, which uses newer cars with different, Mazda-Cosworth engines.

And thanks! Yea, they are fantastic cars. The track was very nice, it was my 1st time there. It is a relatively small track, but it is deff a fun course. It has some elevation changes in the first part, which makes things interesting too.

Oooo...elevation changes... Elevatoin changes can make fun, blind corners!....

Just a train of thought... how much are those Atlantics?

We picked up both of these as a package from Condor Motorsports, who ran them in the pro series the year before. My car was actually the 2006 championship winning car. We got the cars, and a nice spares package for 100k.

It was smart that we jumped on that one, now 014's are very hard to find and one car will be a good 80k

Yooou lucky lucky boy. I'd kill for something like that, shame my family don't have the money.

I am quite fortunate as I got to drive something similar to this on Saturday. I got an early birthday present in the form of a driving experience at croft circuit, in England, and I got to drive an old Formula Renault car. It has around 150 horsepower, and apparently a good aero package for an old car.

I was easily the fastest one in the car on the day in ourt group of drivers, and it is so addictive. I was unlucky ton only get 5 laps, but It felt amazing. They are so different to road cars you don't even realise. I very nearly didn't fit in it either lol, because I'm quite a wide lad.

But I was actually quite pleased with my pace. We got to go out in a hot lap after in a caterham, and I reckon I was only a little bit off the pace he had, and I could have got his pace if I had got back out. I wana win the lottery or something so I can buy one and enter an amateur series or something. Just make sure you appreciate it fella cos you are one lucky man.

Wow, you are so lucky.

It would be so nice to drive one of those on the track.

Yooou lucky lucky boy. I'd kill for something like that, shame my family don't have the money.

I am quite fortunate as I got to drive something similar to this on Saturday. I got an early birthday present in the form of a driving experience at croft circuit, in England, and I got to drive an old Formula Renault car. It has around 150 horsepower, and apparently a good aero package for an old car.

I was easily the fastest one in the car on the day in ourt group of drivers, and it is so addictive. I was unlucky ton only get 5 laps, but It felt amazing. They are so different to road cars you don't even realise. I very nearly didn't fit in it either lol, because I'm quite a wide lad.

But I was actually quite pleased with my pace. We got to go out in a hot lap after in a caterham, and I reckon I was only a little bit off the pace he had, and I could have got his pace if I had got back out. I wana win the lottery or something so I can buy one and enter an amateur series or something. Just make sure you appreciate it fella cos you are one lucky man.

That is awesome that you got the chance to have that experience. I know, that is what I have been saying - you tell people that they are fast and all, and way different than any other type of car, but they cannot possibly realize how much faster and different it is than other cars with out driving one. I tell some people that my 250 hp race car will completely lay shame to any road car you throw at me, and they always respond - "nah, an Enzo would beat that thing! Its got like 650 hp!" I just lol. You just can't comprehend the performance levels of these cars.

And yes, I never shrugged off for a second the fact that I am very lucky to have this in my life. I know most people are not fortunate enough to do this sort of thing, and the fact I do have the means to do it, I am very appreciative of.

I actually am not very familiar with Formula 3 cars, at first I thought you meant F3000 cars, but that cannot be, since they have way more than 200 bhp.
Doing a quick search of the cars shows that they do seem to be quite similar power to weight wise, however I do not know if these cars have tunnels underneath. If they do, then yes, they are very like a Formula Atlantic. If not, a FA would most likely be significantly faster since it would make a lot more downforce. Even so, I would put my money on the FA due to its higher power, yet still comparable weights. The class minimum for FA I believe is 1,225 lbs, or ~555 kg. The reason my car's minimum weight must be 1300 is because I have 3 weight penalties, each costing me 25 lbs - carbon fiber tub, fuel injection, and sequential manual transmission.

I did some searching regarding the tunnels, but turned up nothing - I even tried to look up formula 3 blueprints which might uncover something, but nothing. How prominent are the tunnels?

Anyway, here are the basic Formula 3 restrictions for reference:


width : 1850 mm (72.8") maximum
wheelbase : 2000 mm (78.75") minimum
track : 1200 mm (47") minimum
weight: 550 kg (1213 lbs) minimum
active suspension, telemetry, and traction control are forbidden
two-wheel steering only
two-wheel drive only
manual gearbox, six forward gears (maximum) and one reverse
undrilled ferrous brakes
wheels, width 11.5 inches (292 mm), diameter 13 inches (330 mm) maximum
Control fuel from a single supplier, but of a comparative level to pump/street gasoline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline) (petrol)
Stock derived 2000cc engine with 26 mm (1.02")-diameter restrictor, hence about 200 horsepower (150 kW) between 5000 and 7400 rpm

You got a video camera? Gaffer tape? Be a man, and tape us a lap in one :p!

^That would be amazing.


You're so lucky firebird. Damn nice!

You got a video camera? Gaffer tape? Be a man, and tape us a lap in one :p!

a) Are you sure gaffa tape would hold?
b) Some motorsports have to use regulation cameras :-k

I did some searching regarding the tunnels, but turned up nothing - I even tried to look up formula 3 blueprints which might uncover something, but nothing. How prominent are the tunnels?

Anyway, here are the basic Formula 3 restrictions for reference:


width : 1850 mm (72.8") maximum
wheelbase : 2000 mm (78.75") minimum
track : 1200 mm (47") minimum
weight: 550 kg (1213 lbs) minimum
active suspension, telemetry, and traction control are forbidden
two-wheel steering only
two-wheel drive only
manual gearbox, six forward gears (maximum) and one reverse
undrilled ferrous brakes
wheels, width 11.5 inches (292 mm), diameter 13 inches (330 mm) maximum
Control fuel from a single supplier, but of a comparative level to pump/street gasoline (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline) (petrol)
Stock derived 2000cc engine with 26 mm (1.02")-diameter restrictor, hence about 200 horsepower (150 kW) between 5000 and 7400 rpm

I am pretty certain an Atlantic would out pace a F3. The weights are very similar, the minimum weights are actually pretty much the same (minimum for Atlantic, I believe is about 2,025 - I have a 75 lb penalty for having carbon tub, fuel injection, and SMG) but the Atlantic has a good 50 more hp, if not more. That is a lot in something so light.

Heres a pic of the Ralt's tunnels underneath. They make essentially free downforce, as they cause pretty much no drag. They really do suck the car down a huge amount, more than you would think. Just imagine the vacuum they would make at around 100 mph, through a corner :D
If the F3 does not have that, it is a huge disadvantage compared to a FA.

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s270/connorburke/PIC_0006.jpg

You got a video camera? Gaffer tape? Be a man, and tape us a lap in one :p!

Yea, I have a camera, but no place to mount it! I would love to get a remote little "eye" that plugs into the camera, I am sure I could find somewhere to mount that. I am actually looking into it! ;)

a) Are you sure gaffa tape would hold?
b) Some motorsports have to use regulation cameras :-k

ehh, just wrap it up with some scotch tape. it'll do the trick. :D

and the SCCA does not have any regulations as far as what camera is allowed, however I must assume there might be places that you are not allowed to mount it to.

Are you sure gaffa tape would hold?

It was just the idea I was hinting about, I wasn't telling him how to actually do it.

Yea, I have a camera, but no place to mount it! I would love to get a remote little "eye" that plugs into the camera, I am sure I could find somewhere to mount that. I am actually looking into it! ;)

Do you have to use full-face helmets even when you're practising? I've seen a few helmets with cameras moulded in them (a cycle helment is what's coming to mind). Anyway, good luck with trying to get us some footage. Actually, don't, you will just make us all more jealous :p!

That is awesome that you got the chance to have that experience. I know, that is what I have been saying - you tell people that they are fast and all, and way different than any other type of car, but they cannot possibly realize how much faster and different it is than other cars with out driving one. I tell some people that my 250 hp race car will completely lay shame to any road car you throw at me, and they always respond - "nah, an Enzo would beat that thing! Its got like 650 hp!" I just lol. You just can't comprehend the performance levels of these cars.

And yes, I never shrugged off for a second the fact that I am very lucky to have this in my life. I know most people are not fortunate enough to do this sort of thing, and the fact I do have the means to do it, I am very appreciative of.

I was lucky because I got to drive a porsche cayman before hand, so it was like a direct comparision between a road car and a race car. The differences are astounding, I mean, I thought the porsche was fast (I managed to overtake someone driving a ferrari haha, but he was about 60) but you get in the race car, and it's so different. You have one turn of lock, the clutch has about 4 inches of travel, the car I was driving had a manual gearbox, 4 gears, and honestly, the gearshift was just a piece of pipe with a handle on. Your pretty much lying down in the seat, the brakes are heavy, the accelarator is heavy, it is amazing.

I only had 5 laps, but I was getting progressively quicker. There was possibly one corner where I had left myself with too much to do, and I tohught I would spin, but the sheer grip of the car managed to hold me in place. The car wasn't wearing slicks, and the tyres weren't especially fat.

I would love to know somebody with a car like yours to trust me enough to let me have a go. It's not like the car I was driving was lacking in power, but, god I'd love to experience something like that.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll140/williamgraham_2008/DSCF0013.jpg

That's me with the ridiculous flame retard thing they give us, which incidently, didn't fit properly, because my head is quite the size.

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll140/williamgraham_2008/DSCF0014.jpg

That's me and the car I drove if anyone is in any dis belief. It was a bit damp, but the track had dried up enough to get some speed in.

When I came back the instructor was talking to me, he walked over and touched the tyres, and came back, "Well, you've managed to get those warm, well done." That made me canny proud. :)

Also it's good to know you appreicate what you have. Their are kis like me who would kill to have your kind of oppurtunity, but then you get people who just treat it as an everyday thing. All in all, I hope you do well and can make a career out of it, because, well, I'm just guessing here, but that would be what you'd want. :p



Also, I wanted to have a camera in the car, but they didn't have any. You can get that service at thruxton though. If they had cameras on the cars they would make an absolute killing from selling them on.

Driving these things is unlike anything else you have ever driven. The grip and braking levels on them are just absolutely mind blowing. Unlike road cars, and cars without downforce, you do not ease on the brakes for max performance. At the end of a straight you stand on the brake as hard as you can - the tires will not lock up, due to the huge amount of DF it is generating. As you slow down, however, you must ease off the brake or else the tires will lock, since you are going slower, and therefore making less DF. Yesterday, at the end of one of the straights, I was going about 135-140 mph. In a matter of maybe 2 seconds I was going 40 mph. Those really are conservative numbers, too.
Your first experience in a car that makes downforce is very weird. You may find your self loosing grip in a certain corner, and your first instinct tells you that you are going too fast. In reality, however, you must pick up the pace through the turn and trust your downforce to give you more grip than if you are going slower. It is an eerie feeling at first, but you just have to take baby steps, moving up a level each time to explore the cars limits. It still blows my mind how blindingly fast I can go through an entire turn. In fact, turns that I was braking for in the beginning of the day, I later progressed to merely lifting the throttle, and soon I was completely flat on the throttle through the whole turn.
With the amazing grip and braking capabilities the car offers, you find yourself braking later into corners, and carrying more speed you thought was possible through the corner.
If I had to say the biggest challenge of driving one of these cars fast, it would easily be learning to trust the downforce.

That give you a slight idea of what it is like to drive it? ;)That's amazing to just read, you sure know how to make a guy jealous. Next time you guys hit the track, let me know and if I could make it I would love to see this thing rip up some pavement. I've never driven a car that's so downforce oriented as you described, it seems like such a great experience. I started looking up prices on theses things after I saw the pictures, they are not as expensive as I would have thought, but they're still wayyyy out of my price range. You're a lucky guy to have a dad who shares the same passion for the racing that you have. What is the sanctioning body for the racing series? I know it's not NASA, and you already said it wasn't the SCCA so I guess it must be part of the Formula racing organizations?

Well, after much digging through the British F3 Gallery archives, I found this:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2659/f3ke7.jpg

Not quite sure if it has the undercarriage tunnels - is it possible to tell from the picture?

I'd love to race one of those at Hallet.

Nice man, i may get into vintage racing soon. but we shall see. I guess i should put picks up of my stepdad's car sometime.

It appears to have one central tunnel, but, just look at the tyres, that atlantics tyres are more than enough to make the difference.

It appears to have one central tunnel, but, just look at the tyres, that atlantics tyres are more than enough to make the difference.

I just noticed the f-ing huge tires on that thing. Jesus those are giant compared to the F3s! :eek:

It was just the idea I was hinting about, I wasn't telling him how to actually do it.



Do you have to use full-face helmets even when you're practising? I've seen a few helmets with cameras moulded in them (a cycle helment is what's coming to mind). Anyway, good luck with trying to get us some footage. Actually, don't, you will just make us all more jealous :p!

Yes, a full face helmet is required. I would think a cam could be mounted to the roll hoop, or something like that.

I was lucky because I got to drive a porsche cayman before hand, so it was like a direct comparision between a road car and a race car. The differences are astounding, I mean, I thought the porsche was fast (I managed to overtake someone driving a ferrari haha, but he was about 60) but you get in the race car, and it's so different. You have one turn of lock, the clutch has about 4 inches of travel, the car I was driving had a manual gearbox, 4 gears, and honestly, the gearshift was just a piece of pipe with a handle on. Your pretty much lying down in the seat, the brakes are heavy, the accelarator is heavy, it is amazing.

I only had 5 laps, but I was getting progressively quicker. There was possibly one corner where I had left myself with too much to do, and I tohught I would spin, but the sheer grip of the car managed to hold me in place. The car wasn't wearing slicks, and the tyres weren't especially fat.

I would love to know somebody with a car like yours to trust me enough to let me have a go. It's not like the car I was driving was lacking in power, but, god I'd love to experience something like that.


When I came back the instructor was talking to me, he walked over and touched the tyres, and came back, "Well, you've managed to get those warm, well done." That made me canny proud. :)

Also it's good to know you appreicate what you have. Their are kis like me who would kill to have your kind of oppurtunity, but then you get people who just treat it as an everyday thing. All in all, I hope you do well and can make a career out of it, because, well, I'm just guessing here, but that would be what you'd want. :p



Also, I wanted to have a camera in the car, but they didn't have any. You can get that service at thruxton though. If they had cameras on the cars they would make an absolute killing from selling them on.

Very cool, man! And congrats on the nice driving!
Yea, lol I didn't even get into the physical controls in the cockpit...
You want to know what my seat is made out of? Some tape, a garbage bag, and boat foam! You set up the garbage bag in side the car, sit on top of it, and pour the 2 part foam in the bag. It expands to something like 40 times its size, and fills in all around you forming a perfect seat that is unique to you. Let it settle, pull off the bag, trim it a bit, cover it in tape, and viola! The clutch is like a light switch, and on my car has maybe an inch and a half of travel. In my car I actually don't even use the clutch while on the track. It will upshift/downshift with out touching the clutch. All of the pedals are so close that you could not drive it with ordinary shoes, they are too wide. Yes, steering ratio is very quick, you will never have to cross your arms. As you know, it all makes for a very cool feeling.

That's amazing to just read, you sure know how to make a guy jealous. Next time you guys hit the track, let me know and if I could make it I would love to see this thing rip up some pavement. I've never driven a car that's so downforce oriented as you described, it seems like such a great experience. I started looking up prices on theses things after I saw the pictures, they are not as expensive as I would have thought, but they're still wayyyy out of my price range. You're a lucky guy to have a dad who shares the same passion for the racing that you have. What is the sanctioning body for the racing series? I know it's not NASA, and you already said it wasn't the SCCA so I guess it must be part of the Formula racing organizations?

I will let you know next time we go somewhere - what tracks are you close too?
Yea, you could probably pick up a decent, slightly older Atlantic for around 35-40k. Still not cheap, and you can get a very nice street car for that money... hmm, 335i coupe, or Formula Atlantic? (no brainer for me! :D)
And the sanctioning body is SCCA. You must have misread it somewhere, or maybe I made a typo...

Well, after much digging through the British F3 Gallery archives, I found this:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2659/f3ke7.jpg

Not quite sure if it has the undercarriage tunnels - is it possible to tell from the picture?

I can tell, that car has a flat bottom, like an F1 car, F3000 ect... That in back is just a pretty big diffuser, but probably once it gets past the rear axle, it turns to a flat belly. Just from that, I can tell you a FA would make significantly better DF.

I'd love to race one of those at Hallet.

Nice man, i may get into vintage racing soon. but we shall see. I guess i should put picks up of my stepdad's car sometime.

Post 'em up! what is it? You def should get into it, if you have the means. But i'll warn you - it is very addictive, and you will be yearning from then on to fuel your new addiction!

See, when I was driving my diddy racing car, I just though, this is what a street car should feel like. But in all reality, they would be so bad for the street. Tiny clutch, super short gears, it would be terrible. If ever I come into some sort of money though, this is deffinitely on my list.

The seat in the car I drove, well, if you call it a seat, wasn't really a seat at all. Obviously it wasn't a custom one, because they have to use it foreveryone, but it was like, a bit of leather covering the floorpan, slightly raised for your knees, then a sorta scoop for your back. It is strangely comfrtable once you start flooring it though, because, well, you have a much lower centre of gravity, so you can't really move around, and the sheer fact that I was literally squashed in because of my shoulders meant I hardlys moved at all.

Downforce is well, is a very strange feeling. They gave us standard helmets, so told us to lower them, and keep a finger in, so as not to let them fog up. Theres a point in accelerating where, the air just slams into your face and into your helmet, which I can only assume is coming up from the front wing. But, I reckon next time I go on a track day (I will do it again) I'll try your downforce explanation. There is some esses there that I was slowing for, but, with the downforce, I should probably be able to take them flat. I shouldn't be so obsessive really, the only way I can get my fix is through bloody track days. :p

Oh yea, there is a reason it is called a race car - cus its made for racing and not the street! Not only what you mentioned, but they also have a very large turning radius compared to a street car, which would become very annoying on the road.

Careful with those esses, though! I don't wanna be the guy who tells you to take them flat and have you get hurt! I have no idea how much DF the cars you drove make. When I did my racing school a few years ago, the cars had front and rear wings, but as dumb as it sounds, they were just for show! They were pretty much flat rather than having the upside down airplane wing shape, which is what makes the DF. Make sure those cars are not the same before you go flying through the turn , thinking it is going to stick, lol. Also, it sounds obvious, but dont forget that you are still on treaded tires, so it will not have as much grip as I am explaining about the FA. If the wings are real, you will obviously feel the effects of the DF, but not to the extent of a car wearing hot sticky racing slicks.
My best advise is this, and hopefully you were already doing this:
take baby steps, all through out the track. Make little notes in your head of where you are braking, where you are applying throttle, where the car is on the track, what gear you are in where, ect... at all of the corners on the track. Each lap, or when you are comfortable, go a bit past where you last braked, try to apply throttle a bit sooner, and focus on hitting that apex every time. If you keep doing this, soon you will find yourself braking way after where you used to brake, applying more throttle sooner, and just carrying more speed through the corner in general. The worst thing you can do is take a huge leap of faith and bomb through a corner like you have never done before. If you do that, you are asking for disaster.
Also, a few more pointers, if you didn't know already:
smoothness is key. The throttle is not a light switch, work on smoothly applying more throttle as you go through the turn. When I work on applying throttle earlier in the turn, this is what I mean. It is way better to be barely on the gas, and feed it more as you go through than to just stomp on it when the car is exiting the turn.
Same principal goes for braking... most of the time. If your car makes a lot of downforce, like an Atlantic, you can hammer as hard as you want on the brake pedal and the tires won't lock up. But be sure to ease off once the car is below, 80 mph or so, since the the tires will lock. This is the way to go fast in a high DF car. A car without without tons of DF responds best to what I explained with throttle modulation, except with braking.
Also, smooth hands on the wheel is very important. Try to make just one steering input throughout the whole corner. If you need to adjust where the car is on the track, it often works best to do this with with the throttle. By that I mean, if you are too wide, don't suddenly let off the gas completely, but slowly ease off it until you see the car going where you want. It is especially important not to suddenly let off the throttle here, as if you do it will unsettle the car, transferring the weight from the rear tires to the front of the car, causing you to spin out most likely.
One more thing: A good way to see if you have exited the turn better than the last time is to look at the tach. If it is revving higher at that corner exit than it was the lap before, you did something right, and do it again! I use that little trick all the time, and it is very helpful.
Its funny, because when you feel like you are really hauling ass, you usually aren't. Thats because quick movements, jerking the car from one part of the track to the other, hanging out the rear are and all that stuff that feels fast, are actually slow. When you do make a very fat lap, its the opposite. You are relaxed, driving the car as smooth as possible, maybe singing a little song in your head, and when you see your lap time you will go "Whoa! It didn't even feel fast!"

Hope that helps a bit for your next time at the track. I am sure your instructor told you a lot, if not all of that. But if you haven't already, put some of that to the test. Don't feel like you have to do it all at once, but using those techniques the speed will most definently come to you.

Thanks man. The instructors there were excellent, and they did hammer the smoothness is key thing into your head, but, well, they weren't looking for me to go s fast as I can, they just wanted me to enjoy it. Obviously I did, but I also want to be the fastest person there as well.

I'll deffinitely use that tach idea next time I'm there. They aren't especially high revving, but powerfully enough for the car.

And I will becareful with those esses. I'll not try anything I don't think the car is capable of, or myself for that matter. But thank you very much for the advice.

Thanks man. The instructors there were excellent, and they did hammer the smoothness is key thing into your head, but, well, they weren't looking for me to go s fast as I can, they just wanted me to enjoy it. Obviously I did, but I also want to be the fastest person there as well.

I'll deffinitely use that tach idea next time I'm there. They aren't especially high revving, but powerfully enough for the car.

And I will becareful with those esses. I'll not try anything I don't think the car is capable of, or myself for that matter. But thank you very much for the advice.
No problem! glad to help. And where you say you won't try anything your not capable of, realize, as I said, the way to figure that out is the "baby steps" where you keep trying little things differently. Try braking a little later here, earlier throttle there, ect... Experiment, and see what is fastest. It is the best and surest way to to explore both yours and the cars limits.

Also, what I forgot to mention was what you do with your eyes. I was taught this in my racing school a few years ago. My instructor called it "ocular driving." Basically what that means, is when you are on your straight heading to a corner, be looking at the specific point where you plan to brake. As soon as you are there, shift your eyes to the apex of the corner, and lock your arms so that the steering wheel is set for the apex. Since you have locked your arms in a position to hit the apex, there is no need to keep focusing your eyes on the apex, and instead shift your eyes to the corner exit and begin to feed the throttle as you exit the corner.
Thats all I got for now...


EDIT: My dad just sent me a video he took of me driving. It was from the beginning of the day, maybe my second time in the car. This was before I figured out how to make smooth downshifts with the SMG, it was a bit tricky at first. That is why you can hear me kind of bog as I exit some corners, I couldn't get it in a low enough gear.

Link:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Swit-014-Formula-Atlantic-test-day---1st-time-in-c_156982.htm

DAMMIT. What DON'T you do?
:mad:

Can you secure me a seat if I secure you, um, some money supplies, and PLUS I'm an awesome racer...Or you could hire me as a, um, race engineer (I could be the one who plans out your race strategy)

Damn, firebird400, your my freakin hero!!!

Those must be insane, I'll probably drive something similar to that, someday. :D

Impressive video.

God, they make a good noise.

I can tell, that car has a flat bottom, like an F1 car, F3000 ect... That in back is just a pretty big diffuser, but probably once it gets past the rear axle, it turns to a flat belly. Just from that, I can tell you a FA would make significantly better DF.

Plus I'm willing to bet the tires are basically twice as big :p

From that shot it is bloody obvious tire-wise, plus the spoiler on the Atlantic looks a little bigger.

http://www.dallara.it/siteimages/2_senna_04.jpg

http://www.cskerlong.com/images/gallery/atlantic/DSC_182.JPG

haha wow, comparing those 2 pics, the atlantic's rear tires completely dworf the F3's.

EDIT: hey all, I asked my dad for confirmation on an Atlantic's minimum weight. I thought it was 1225 lbs, when it is actually 1230 lbs but what I forgot to mention that is very important is that is the minimum weight WITH a driver. So subtract the weight of a driver, and the actual car weighs around 1100 lbs. As I have said, the minimum for my car is plus 25 lbs for carbon tub, 25 lbs for fuel injection, and 25 lbs for sequential shift. So my cars minimum plus me in it is 1305 lbs.
Just thought I would clear that up.

LOL, those tires are ridiculous...

I wish that I had a Formula Atlantic racer....

The closest thing I have is a boat that "races" on the Atlantic...
:D

Seriously though, I'm here if you need a race engineer (I'll work for free*)
*A couple of burnouts in the M5, and a couple of runs in the Ferrari will suffice*

LOL, those tires are ridiculous...

I wish that I had a Formula Atlantic racer....

The closest thing I have is a boat that "races" on the Atlantic...
:D

Seriously though, I'm here if you need a race engineer (I'll work for free*)
*A couple of burnouts in the M5, and a couple of runs in the Ferrari will suffice*

lol a boat that races on the atlantic ain't bad either!

I'm in college to be an ME, so I think I can do my own engineering thank you very much :D

...but if you wanna make the trip down to Jersey, I'm sure I could make it worth your while anyway ;)

*race your boat all the way down the Atlantic to NJ!

The cool part about the F3's are that it's Merc POWER!! lol



If you compare FA's to Formula BMW's... i wonder which would perform better.

The FA would be much faster. A Formula BMW has only like 140 hp. It is a bit lighter, but it won't make nearly as much downforce. Plus, as said before about F3, the fat tires on an Atlantic are probably enough to make a difference alone.

A FBMW would probably be more comparable to an SCCA spec Formula Continental (AKA Formula Ford 2000). They use a 2 liter Ford engine, which make about 140-150 hp, and have similar weights and ground effects.

http://www.stevewelk.com/images/LatestPhotoSept4.JPG

What about Formula Nippons... Their bodywork is alot more aerodynamic than FA's.

lol a boat that races on the atlantic ain't bad either!

I'm in college to be an ME, so I think I can do my own engineering thank you very much :D

...but if you wanna make the trip down to Jersey, I'm sure I could make it worth your while anyway ;)

*race your boat all the way down the Atlantic to NJ!

Lol, it's only a dinghy...it can't go offshore...

And by race "engineer," I meant I would be the guy who controls your pit strategy and is in your head the whole time...
:D

What about Formula Nippons... Their bodywork is alot more aerodynamic than FA's.

They also use 3.0L V8s :)

A Formula Nippon should be quite a bit faster than an Atlantic; they are very similar to Formula 3000's which are also faster than Atlantics. A Nippon has way more hp (I just read Swift has the green light to build the '09 cars, and they will be about 600 hp) than an Atlantic. I would also think they would use a similar sequential gearbox. They have a flat bottom, so at similar speeds an Atlantic would probably make more downforce, but the huge hp that a Nippon has would make it faster.

A Formula Nippon should be quite a bit faster than an Atlantic; they are very similar to Formula 3000's which are also faster than Atlantics. A Nippon has way more hp (I just read Swift has the green light to build the '09 cars, and they will be about 600 hp) than an Atlantic. I would also think they would use a similar sequential gearbox. They have a flat bottom, so at similar speeds an Atlantic would probably make more downforce, but the huge hp that a Nippon has would make it faster.

I think Formula Nippon diverged from the Formula 3000 umbrella when the F3000 comp became a non-constructors championship (single make). So Formula Nippon had Lola, Reynard and G-Force, but after a number of years, Lola is all that's left, so they are also technically now a single make comp as well.

They use two different kinds of engines in Nippon. Toyota and Honda engines.

They use two different kinds of engines in Nippon. Toyota and Honda engines.

Indeed they do, but both of them are 3.0L V8s, but can be tuned by an outside company.

I know this because I have the addon mod Formula Nippon for Rfactor and Formula Atlantics as well. :D

What is Rfactor??

A racing Simulator.

Nice pics, F400!

The info in your driving descriptions probably didn't register with the "free downforce/pro-wing" brigade.

SCCA had a Formula Super V class with no-holds-barred SoCal O-4 beetle engine tech + limited wings. After VW introduced the FWD waterpumper Rabbit/Golf around '76 [a great success]; VW and Bosch promoted a Pro Super V series using a stock-block 1.6L Wabbit motor.

Drake Engineering (the last gasp from the former builders of the turbo Offenhauser) sold a motor kit of crank, rods, pistons, big (2) valve heads, and mechanical injection driven direct off the cam. These suckers cranked 195 HP from a stock VW block. They had to stop with stock Wabbit brakes F/R. They could do 155 @ Rd ATL (4000'+ straight) when F/ATL cars did 140 and slaughtered SV lap times with superior HP, braking, and downforce.

Yea, I have seen a couple Super V's, there is one in the race shop my friend works at, and I have seen them on the track. They are very cool cars, however I never knew they could get going that fast.

Let me get this straight, though. You are saying that while the Formula Super V's had less hp, less drag (not as much wings ect...) and therefore could reach a higher topspeed? But while the Atlantic would not have as high a top speed, it would lap Atlanta quicker because of its higher downforce and braking?

Very cool, regardless. I never knew a SV was so quick

hey firebird could i have some more secs about them.they sure look like fun.

1600 cc Toyota engine
~250 hp
5 speed sequential shift with no-lift-shift
1305 lbs with driver in it
tops out at about 160 mph, but the real fun is in the turns
revs to 10,500 RPM
all carbon fiber - tub (chassis), bodywork

Let me get this straight, though. You are saying that while the Formula Super V's had less hp, less drag (not as much wings ect...) and therefore could reach a higher topspeed? But while the Atlantic would not have as high a top speed, it would lap Atlanta quicker because of its higher downforce and braking?

I believe that to be correct as of 20+ years ago. At what tracks do current FAtl cars do 160?

I believe that to be correct as of 20+ years ago. At what tracks do current FAtl cars do 160?

If I remember correctly, last year at Road America I was hitting about 155 mph on the back straight, which is just about up there. I would say 5 more mph is possible though with some more room. Road America is a very fast track though, long straights.