Okokokok...I like to consider myself extremely knowledgable when it comes to car comparisons...So, I've compiled a list of cars that meet any other cars in there markets as far as performance goes...So don't bring "pricing and driver talent into it"...If you want to argue a different point just say so and don't bring those two up, this is performance only...no cash money discussions here...n00b..hehe..Anyways...THE LIST!!!! (Add any that you think ought to be on here, and yes Jaguar and Aston-Martin are owned by Ford, I didn't include them)(No Lingeffeter's or Saleen Mustangs)

(2003)-Models Only
Saleen S7
Mosler MT900 Photon
Mosler MT900 S
Shelby Series 1
Dodge Viper SRT-10
Corvette Z06
SVT Cobra
SVT Focus
SRT-4 Neon

What about the Spyker C8 Laviolette, Spyder, or Double 12S?

Those are from the netherlands. Anyway Ghalos, i can offically say that you are one of the coolest people in here. First all the cool stories, now this list. I can't think of anymore, except for maybe the Mustang Mach 1. It's pretty cool. However, there is a flaw in your list. You didn't say that the cars had to be offered in the US ONLY. Therefore, i belive you should add the Focus RS and Mondeo ST220 and The Ford Falcon Boss.

i don't think the neon should be on that list its basically a stripped down evo VII, it accelerates fast but it only tops at 148, thats not very fast

Those are from the netherlands.

I haven't heard him say they have to be from the US :? ....

How about these:

BMW M3-M5
Mercedes-Benz SLR, SL 55 AMG etc
Audi Le Mans Quattro, Nuvolari Quattro
Lamborghini Murcielago, Gallardo
Ferrari Enzo, 575M, 360 Modena
Porsche Carrera GT, 911 GT2, GT3
Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, DB9
TVR Speed 12, Tuscan S
McLaren F1 (LM)
Koenigsegg CC
Spyker C8 Double 12S
Alfa Romeo Brera/Evoluta
Maserati Coupe GT
Lotus Elise, Esprit V8
VolksWagen W12

Is that enough for European Cars??

And how about some great Japanese:

Honda NSX-R
Nissan Skyline GTR R34
Nissan 350Z
Subaru Impreza WRX STi
Mitsubishi Lancer EVO VIII
Mazda RX-8

:?:

Over met de deur in huis vallen gesproken :shock: ....

Great list you made, Jim! It's got all mainly know supercars in it, but i'm not sure about the Speed 12, though.... 800HP?

Ok, ummm...to those who believe the M3 and M5 can't be outgunned, suck on a 405 Horsepower Z06 V-8, then talk to me...The 350Z, same goes for you too...The Skyline, yeah I love them, stock they put out "only" 300 horses...sooo....The NSX-R and a Viper?!?!!!!! WTF THAT'S THE DUMBEST **** ON THE PLANET!!!! The 290 horsepower V-6 vs. the 505 CU.-INCH V-10 of TORQUE!!!!!!! AHAGAHAHG!!!...anyways...The STi and Lancer EVO VIII can suck on the tailpipes of either the Cobra or the SRT-4, but I promised not to bring in the whole "pricing" comparo, so, but all these cars are matched financially *wink-wink*....The RX-8 is a piece of crap, I saw it, sat in it, and shifted it all at the NY auto show, sucked major ass, fun yes, but wait until the newest RX-7 comes out (they, Mazda, are doing that too...)

Alfa Romeo Brera/Evoluta
Maserati Coupe GT
Lotus Elise, Esprit V8
VolksWagen W12
How's about a nice Viper SRT-10?!?! or a flashy MT900 S?!!

McLaren F1 (LM)
Koenigsegg CC
Spyker C8 Double 12S
SALEEN S-7 = fast as them, and gets a fancy shmancy thingie called a rearview camera!!! (Not top speed, unless you take out the rev limiter in 6th, then it'll go 500 rpms to top 235mph...HAHAHAH!!!)

Mercedes-Benz SLR, SL 55 AMG etc
Audi Le Mans Quattro, Nuvolari Quattro
Lamborghini Murcielago, Gallardo
Ferrari Enzo, 575M, 360 Modena
Porsche Carrera GT, 911 GT2, GT3
Aston Martin V12 Vanquish, DB9
TVR Speed 12, Tuscan S

Get an XLR, 405 horsepower, it's a Cadillac, the definitive PIMP ride...hehehe...the ENZO!?!?!!! GO GET AN S-7, and the MT900 Photon, (no money comparo was a dumb idea on my part) and talk to me again about performance, the Photon is a frickin' race car...from Florida, yeah, whoduhthunkit)

I know this sounds like I'm railing jimkk29, sorry dude, you had the best list...ummm...these in no WAY make me a "domestics rule" guy...but this forum IS AMERICAN CARS...if I were in the European car or Japanesse sections, I'd have done the same...

Oh thanks guys, now I'm late for class, HAHAHA YAY FOR SKIPPING!!! jimkk29, THAT is your fault... 8)

Man, take paralyzing drug or something and cool down!

Haha...yeah, I read it and said, "damn, they'll think I'm insane"...Well, I woke up 3 hours ago and haven't had anything today except coffee...sooooo....off to the deli!!!!! :D :D :D

There are also some american cars you forgot to put on your list ghalos.

Mercury Marauder

SVT Lightning

Lincon LS (It's faster than a stock 5 series. Trust me, i saw both of them drag race at the strip. The LS owned the bimmer)

thats it for now. I'm sure i'll think of some later

Over met de deur in huis vallen gesproken :shock: ....
LOLOL can you translate that? :lol:

:arrow: Ghalos: ok, nice cars, but allow me to tell you some things:

Ok, ummm...to those who believe the M3 and M5 can't be outgunned, suck on a 405 Horsepower Z06 V-8, then talk to me...
Well I do believe that the Z06 is a lot more expensive? At least in Europe I can guarantee you that it is. And btw the Z06 is a pure sports car, whereas the M3-M5 are just 'sporty' saloons-coupes. So there's not really a comparison there.

The 350Z, same goes for you too...The Skyline, yeah I love them, stock they put out "only" 300 horses...sooo....
The 350Z is just a fun car and is not meant for racing. But the Skyline can run kickass lap times and I can bet that even stock it is a lot faster (I don't mean straight-line) than some of the cars you posted initially.

The NSX-R and a Viper?!?!!!!! WTF THAT'S THE DUMBEST [censored] ON THE PLANET!!!! The 290 horsepower V-6 vs. the 505 CU.-INCH V-10 of TORQUE!!!!!!! AHAGAHAHG!!!...anyways...The STi and Lancer EVO VIII can suck on the tailpipes of either the Cobra or the SRT-4
Would you be surprised if I told you that the NSX-R can run around a track (lap time) faster than the Viper? Well you shouldn't be surprised, cause it's true. Same goes with the STi/EVO - Cobra/SRT-4.

The RX-8 is a piece of crap, I saw it, sat in it, and shifted it all at the NY auto show, sucked major ass
In what way exactly did it suck? Every single review I've read says that it is a hell of a car (really really great car). Perhaps you could find me a similarly priced American car that's better...

Alfa Romeo Brera/Evoluta
Maserati Coupe GT
Lotus Elise, Esprit V8
VolksWagen W12
How's about a nice Viper SRT-10?!?! or a flashy MT900 S?!!
Ok, you have a nice alternative here, but allow me to remind you that the Viper is waaaaay more expensive than the cars I listed (Europe prices). I don't think it beats them all, btw.

McLaren F1 (LM)
Koenigsegg CC
Spyker C8 Double 12S
SALEEN S-7 = fast as them, and gets a fancy shmancy thingie called a rearview camera!!! (Not top speed, unless you take out the rev limiter in 6th, then it'll go 500 rpms to top 235mph...HAHAHAH!!!)
Nice alternative here too, the S-7 is one of the few American cars that I would buy, although I believe I would ultimately choose one of the above Europeans. I also forgot to add the Bugatti Veyron.

Get an XLR, 405 horsepower, it's a Cadillac, the definitive PIMP ride...hehehe...the ENZO!?!?!!! GO GET AN S-7
LOOLOLOLOLOLL this is really funny you really think that this wimpy Cadillac is better than the others I listed?? LOLOL :lol: :lol: :lol:
And btw, think twice about that Enzo-S7 thing...

I know nothing about the MT900 Photon, however, could you fill me in with some info? :?:

Anyway I'm not accusing you of being "domestics rule" guy, but you'll have to think objectively before judging which cars are better than others. There are some pretty good American cars, I admit... However, if you think that overall Americans make better cars, then I'm sorry but you're seriously misinformed. (someone to support me here?)

Oh, and I'm sorry for making you being late for your class. 8)

Jimmkk29 sometimes i wonder where u get your auto info, the 350Z is a true sports car made for the track, A car priced under 30K that has more power then a porsche is truly astonishing. The nissan Z is one of the greatest cars ever produced. THe 350Z is a car ment for racing and to have fun in, its one of only a few cars that u cna do both in

More power than a Porsche?? According to my info, the 350Z has a NA 3.5lt V6 producing 280HP. I know you can do racing but it wasn't built for it. It's not really that hardcore. But don't get me wrong, it's a great car and I would love to have one. It's just that I wouldn't race it if I had one.

Btw, it's not priced everywhere in the world under 30k...

hey Ghalos, i know what you mean about the RX-8 in the New York autoshow. I was a peice of crap, but not beacue it was manufactured poorley, but it was messed around with so much. Eveeryone sat it in and jerked around the shifter and stuff. It was crap when i got into it.

a car equipped with huge brembo brakes not good for racing, you make me laugh, it can race. You driving it you'd probebly lose the race by 10 laps :lol: :lol:

i agree with jim. overall, American cars are not up to the European standard, although we come damn close with the Saleen S-7.

i agree with jim. overall, American cars are not up to the European standard, although we come damn close with the Saleen S-7.

Come on, they are just not that many, in my opinion SRT-4 ucks, and the Cobra is awesome bang for the buck, on a track is as good as an M3 so no bullshit there, and that on a 79 platform, just wait 1 year, next gen Mustang will kick ass, the V6 against the 350Z, and that stuff, GT for euro Coupes and the next gen Cobra................just wait, the Cobra R version is expected to have a V10.

Then Chrysler, first of all owns mercedes, the 300c and stuff are looking nice, the magnum srt-8 would fight well rs6, if the next charger comes to exist it will outgun most european sport coupes with ease.

And the C6, next gen Z06 WILL destroy most cars on every road in the world, at half (at least) the price of an european supercar.

Japan and Europe HAVE great cars, America has just begun designing their next generation of cars, and they look great, i dont think europe is better than japan or than america as for cars, they are just different

Then Chrysler, first of all owns mercedes
I don't think that Chrysler owns Mercedes. They just cooperate. The group's name is Daimler-Chrysler. All Mercedes' look and feel totally different than Chryslers, in all aspects. Mercedes has total independace over the cars they make. (they might be related financially, but Chrysler does not really participate in the decisions taken by Mercedes for Mercedes cars)

a car equipped with huge brembo brakes not good for racing, you make me laugh, it can race. You driving it you'd probebly lose the race by 10 laps :lol: :lol:
Did I insult you personally? Besides, good brakes don't necessarily mean that the car is suited for racing. 350Z just lacks the power, that's all. With a stronger engine (say with the addition of twin turbos) and with some wider tyres and stiffer suspension it would be really capable of racing.

Ok, yes lots of American cars are so-so build quality, but I must say, I'm not bringing in track times, OR PRICES!!!! Anyways, I actually have driven an M3, OH MAN IT WAS AWESOME!!!! But, I wouldn't buy one, here's why: 1)Stiff, but ok for some, not me, and I'm 19 (soon to be 20!!!). 2)I hate bringing price into it, but in the U.S. they retail for 45 thousand...I could go to the local Chevy dealership and get a Z06 for 51 thousand...way better performance...And the same friend who tried, foolhartedly, to race a ****ing McLaren F1, his mom owns a 350Z and it's like sitting in an Eclipse...No view out the rear, from my perspective...It's almost as bad as my dad's mustang...Not quite though.

Ok, because I really don't want to get on a big argument about the other cars...I'll give you guys my views on the RX-8...First off, when I walked into the show, they had a Murcielago, an S-7 a PANOZ!!! OH CRAP, ADD THAT ONE TO MY LIST!!!! OH AHAHAHAHA, that car's awesome...Anyways, and 2 Elise's next to eachother, oh lord, and finally the frickin' Bentley LeMans racer was there...*eyes glaze over, and starts to drool*

Ummm...The RX-8 is ugly, it's really ugly, the third gen RX-7 was gorgeous, just sexy on all accounts. The new one is, thumpy?! I guess, anyways it's visibility out the rear quarters is actually really good because there's no B-pillar, but the view out the back is narrow, it's tall, but narrow. I also found the clutch to be really vague, like it wasn't well connected, maybe that's because I was there late on the last day and someone before me screwed it up...I dunno, I just would rather buy oh, say a MUSTANG MACH 1, with 302 horsepower, 320 lbs./ft of torque.

If I brought pricing into it the comparisons would be different...And especially our opinions, because I live in the U.S., and not too many people here do, and all of our countries import cars from the U.S, so they have some extra fee's which makes them less attractive, but the SRT-4 is the best steal next to a Z06 or Cobra for "bang for bucks"...the SRT-4 costs 19grand here, the evo is 30 grand...11 thousand dollars can completely change a cars suspension, and the SRT-4 makes MORE power than Dodge is letting on, actually proven, ask any motor magazine...Anyways...I hate typing off to the kitchen...and more coffee!!!!
:!:

Wow, this is really chaotic and follows no reasoning whatso ever. I'm totally making a REAL American cars vs the world comparo. This one is really unfounded :P

Ok, because it's all too much to answer, i'll just anwer one question:

LOLOL can you translate that?

I'm sorry Jim, but i can't think of any American saying that has the same meaning as this one. And i can't translate it letteraly, cause it would look like nothing. But let me try: Talking about falling with the door in house.... Doesn't make any sense, eh? Oh well, atleast i gave it a shot :roll: ....

okay, I started to collect some information and I realized how much time it would taketo collaborate it ann and such. I didn't know where to look for some things either. Yes, there's a VERY FEW select EXPENSIVE American cars, but there are even faster and more expensive cars out there. We just don't know about them as well as people who live in other places. There's some very powerful Fords and Holdens that are only sold and made in Australia. Many of older cars are made of the right stuff and can take on these American Super Cars. All we know about are the readily available BMW's, Mercedes, and other common European and Japan. That what amkes them so awesome though. The high performance Jap and Euro cars are SO much more available than the American ones. TVR, MG, Holden, the Aussie branch of Ford, Jaguar, Nissan, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Lotus, Olep/Vauxhall, Toyota, VW, Audi, Honda, Acura, alll have awesome cars. Many of these have cars of comparable prices to American counterparts and absolutely blow them the **** out of the water. Can you argue that? There are some that even don't really have any codirect competition really. Whens the last time you heard of an affordable Mid mounted Rear wheel drive American car? How many American cars are Rear wheel drive? Do ANY American cars have All Wheel Drive? Damn no! Yeah, SUVs and Trucks are NOT cars, those aren't being counted here. Holden has an El Camino replacement car in Australia for a while now and the Ford division there even has a competitor for that. Those sooo need to be brought over here. I think about 5 from both Holden and Ford CARS have high perfomance V-8's in them. How many V-8's go into any American cars? One in Chevy, one in Ford, and one Caddilac. Don't compare 50k BMWs with 100k+ American Supercars. It's very blind to the fact that the M serieris are a MASS production car, though limited. Not nearly as limited to these American money bag priced cars. Wow, I write way too much :mrgreen:

hey dude you forgot, the pontiac GTO is based on the holden!, rear wheel drive v-8 pure aussie power, but its in north america as a pontiac :?

oh and jimkk29 nissan cars are known for their tunability, also the 350Z has a racing package that adds exactly what you think a race car should have hte only thing the package doesn't have is the turbo sadly enough but just wait nissan will release a turbo 350Z soon.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/02images/02sema/nismo_350z_ls.jpg this car can be raced by the looks of it

this car can be raced by the looks of it

Any car can be raced when you tune it properly. So i think tuning is out of question here. Is my uncle's Opel Meriva a car capable of racing? No. Is it when you tune the engine to it's max and put aero kits on it? Yes. Any car can be transformed into a race car, wether it's a Murcielago R-GT, 350Z or Fiat 500! Example ( just popped up in my head... ): A normal Renault Megane is not for racing purpose and cannot seriously be raced with. A Megane F1 is tuned and can.... easely..... So, i think we don't have to bring the whole tuning business in, cause it's unrelative.

Thlam, you are correct but I was talking about the stock 350Z. I know there are some tuners like Nismo who are capable of making a 350Z capable of racing.
With the proper tuning, I could even race my grandfather's '77 Ford Escort!!!! :lol:

cool your grandfather has a 77 ford escort, whats it like?----> going down a hill :lol: :lol:

LOL it's cool! :D :D
We don't use it anymore, we just have it parked.

1967-1969, 1978-1981, 2000-2002 Camaro Z-28 (My favorite years for Camaro)
1967-69 Corvette Stingray
1953 Corvette, the first ever American sports car
1955 Ford Thunderbird, I think that's the first year of Thunderbird. Anyways first successful American Sports car.
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner 426 Hemi
You can supe up the 2003 Pontiac Sunfire pretty good for cheap
1974, 1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Challenger
2005 Pontiac GTO
2005 Ford Mustang
1967-69 Shelby GT500
1966 Ford GT40
2004 Chrysler Crossfire
1969 Dodge Super B
1969 Pontiac GTO
1966, 1972 Chevrolet Chevelle
1969-70 Hemi Cuda
1969, 2002 Camaro ZL1
1967-69, 2000-2002 Pontiac Firebird
1969 Oldsmobile 442
1967-69 Cutlass
Chevrolet Monte Carlos

See? All these cars aren't made anymore. America just doesn'y make a decent range of cars anymore. :mrgreen:

See? All these cars aren't made anymore. America just doesn'y make a decent range of cars anymore. :mrgreen:

Some of them they still make. I just am a huge fan of the Muscle cars that's all! And think about the supercharged 2004 Ford Thunderbird!

Yeah i like muscle cars but i prefer european cars or asian cars, i don't like the 2003 thunderbird not nice at all (It's only my opinion)

See? All these cars aren't made anymore. America just doesn'y make a decent range of cars anymore. :mrgreen:

Some of them they still make. I just am a huge fan of the Muscle cars that's all! And think about the supercharged 2004 Ford Thunderbird!

Sadly the SC T-bird is not going on production

lol, my neighbour actually has a red thunder bird he even has the hardtop, nice car

Oh well I'd never buy one anyways because I don't like Ford!

Ford's are good, I think a certain someone is just upset that GM was a DUMB FOOL and decided "hey guys!!! let's make a bunch of new cars!!! First, we'll make the Pontiac...UGLY!!!! errrr..AZTEK!!! YEAH!!!! Then, we'll make a 260 horsepower supercharged V-6 Grand Am, and we'll make it Front Wheel Drive!!!!" And that was met with large amounts of approval so, the next few..."HEY!! I gottanideaguys! Let's resurrect the GTO, but, let's MAKE IT CRAPPY!!!! First, we'll make it look IDENTICAL to a Grand Am, that way, people will hate us, and then we'll put a measely 350 horsepower 5.7 Liter V-8 (Ok, i mayyyyy be wrong here, please don't jump down my throat) in it and piss people off more!!!"
Then the final plan reallly pissed people off, including a certain ford owner...
"LASTLY!!! We're gonna discontinue the Firebird Camaro Models, even though they're spanking the **** out of all the Ford Boys!!!!"
That's of course not including the Cobra, hehehe.... :twisted:
Anyways, i'm make a topic in this forum for ideas on how american cars should me, IT'S SUGGESTIONS ONLY!!! here's the link

http://www.sportscarforums.com/posting.php?mode=newtopic&f=9

wow this is cleary from the view of a someone that does not look at market trends. Do you know why they stopped making firebird and camaro? becasue they were expensive p.o.s. when comapred to a 22K mustang. It doens't make sense to keep a car that does not sell well. and the New GTO ugly? your really dissing a rebadged holden monaro. the only difference between the holden monaro and the GTO is the ugly pontiac grill in front.

See? All these cars aren't made anymore. America just doesn'y make a decent range of cars anymore. :mrgreen:
hes right muscle died in '73
and your america vs all is BS,
ferrari alone can out perform all your amercan cars, even the s7
enzo < s7
360 modena < corvette z06
even the ****en F40 will own a viper.any YEAR viper
but then again the gt40 was the ferrari slayer...
but then again the gt40 was designed in the UK
once amercan cars race in F1 and win some championships then u can consider them on top.
otherwise
Ferrar, Benz ,Bmw will be the worlds best

Oh, finally someone who understands me...

hes right muscle died in '73

Yeah, and thank god for it, I could care less, but muscle cars are still a helluva fun way to drive, so don't knock them too much...

ferrari alone can out perform all your amercan cars, even the s7
enzo < s7
360 modena < corvette z06
even the [censored] F40 will own a viper.any YEAR viper


The Enzo and the S7 are a drop dead pair, they're exactly identical, both have 0-60 mph times of 3.3 seconds...both run the quarter in 11.5seconds, and both have obscene handling traits, the only difference is the S7 tops out at 223 in 6th, whereas the Enzo tops out at 217.5mph in 6th...The Modena and the Vette are both good cars and YES the Modena will stomp the vette, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying the Vette is an American car that can handle damn good, and the F40 versus the Viper??? The F-40 versus a VIper???? A purpose-built racing honed Ferrari versus a car built to recall tire-shredders from the 60-80's??? POINT...

And ...Ferrar, Benz ,Bmw will be the worlds best
Ferrari, I just talked about, the Benzes??? The Bimmers??? The AMG's and Brabus' and the M's...those are realllly good cars, no questions there, especially the frickin' CLK-GTR AMG just went ape-**** on 2 years ago... :shock: :shock:
But the Mosler MT900 Photon is a purpose built race car...For you metric peoples, the 900 is kilograms, THE WEIGHT!...It's got a HEWLAND RACING GEARBOX...and how we could forget the Corvette Z06 modified engine putting out 400lbs ft of torque...torque gets you down the road faster, but horses are nice too, how about 435?? IN A 1900 lbs car...do the math, it has better aerodynamics (for high speed acceleration and grip) than the enzo and the s7, and dare I say...an F1 LM???

Less coffee...bah, anyways...ummm...the camaro's and firebirds were expensive as hell, and I do notice market trends...which is why I hate humanity...EX:Remember that movie "kangaroo Jack"??? Anyways, the weekend it came out in the U.S. and Japan, too, it was the #1 movie at the box offices, shoot me please.... :(

hes right muscle died in '73

Yeah, and thank god for it, I could care less, but muscle cars are still a helluva fun way to drive, so don't knock them too much...

ferrari alone can out perform all your amercan cars, even the s7
enzo < s7
360 modena < corvette z06
even the [censored] F40 will own a viper.any YEAR viper


The Enzo and the S7 are a drop dead pair, they're exactly identical, both have 0-60 mph times of 3.3 seconds...both run the quarter in 11.5seconds, and both have obscene handling traits, the only difference is the S7 tops out at 223 in 6th, whereas the Enzo tops out at 217.5mph in 6th...The Modena and the Vette are both good cars and YES the Modena will stomp the vette, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying the Vette is an American car that can handle damn good, and the F40 versus the Viper??? The F-40 versus a VIper???? A purpose-built racing honed Ferrari versus a car built to recall tire-shredders from the 60-80's??? POINT...

And ...Ferrar, Benz ,Bmw will be the worlds best
Ferrari, I just talked about, the Benzes??? The Bimmers??? The AMG's and Brabus' and the M's...those are realllly good cars, no questions there, especially the frickin' CLK-GTR AMG just went ape-[censored] on 2 years ago... :shock: :shock:
But the Mosler MT900 Photon is a purpose built race car...For you metric peoples, the 900 is kilograms, THE WEIGHT!...It's got a HEWLAND RACING GEARBOX...and how we could forget the Corvette Z06 modified engine putting out 400lbs ft of torque...torque gets you down the road faster, but horses are nice too, how about 435?? IN A 1900 lbs car...do the math, it has better aerodynamics (for high speed acceleration and grip) than the enzo and the s7, and dare I say...an F1 LM???

Less coffee...bah, anyways...ummm...the camaro's and firebirds were expensive as hell, and I do notice market trends...which is why I hate humanity...EX:Remember that movie "kangaroo Jack"??? Anyways, the weekend it came out in the U.S. and Japan, too, it was the #1 movie at the box offices, shoot me please.... :(
There are a few things that I disagree about. One, the Enzo can do the 1/4 mile about half a second faster than the Saleen, based on just about everything I've ever read about them. It also handles a bit better and has much better brakes. Two, the Mosler has a top speed about 50 mph short of an Enzo's, not that it really matters, but I just felt like pointing that out. Also, that Hewland gear box was one of the sore points about the Mosler because it is so loud that they needed to wear ear protection to drive it.

where does it say that the s7 and the enzo have almost identical times?
from all the sources i read the enzo is faster, not by much but still faster
road & track have tested both cars
enzo:...11.1 @ 133.0 mph
s7:..... .11.8 @ 119. mph (convert it yourselves metric heads)
the enzo has about 100 more hp
s7 is lighter 360lbs
both doors go up
but i would rather choose the race bred Ferrari

yes the viper vs f40 was a bad comparo, but thats the nest best thing hp wise.
& im not talking about tuner cars here...

besides i think its really unfair to the world when its always american vs japan vs euro
when euro has about 3 main countries making excellent cars
i think a pagani c12s can also own a s7
enzo vs c12s would be a perfect comparo

I tink that Ferrari Enzo is better thet all the american cars you can buy now,
Not only the performance, and the power and specifications, ,

I believe that the experience, the lineage, the tradicon and mainly the
name of ferrari is something of which nobody in the USA can be
conceited. Simple Ferrari Enzo is by much a better car than
the present Americans.

you are wrong, your basically going on feraris past and their prestige that is not something u should go on, the S7 and enzo are dead on par with eachother as a wise consumer you would normally take the cheaper one

My point of this whole thread is that the U.S. has damn good cars, but because the U.S. auto makers went deaf blind and stupid for ten years a while back, (mid eighties)...A whole base of consumers went elsewhere. Now there are a number of cars out there that'll "hang" with all the other cars on the planet. If I brought price into this, WHICH I HATE TO DO, look at my original statement and see how good they look in the U.S., I don't know how much these pup's cost elsewhere, but here's my one example of "price versus price"...

A 2003 Mustang Cobra in the United States retails for $35,000.....It has a 390 horsepower, 390 lbs./ft of torque, supercharged V-8 engine. It comes with damn comfy seats, and they're grippy as hell. The interior is the same as the Mustang my dad has, (non-cobra), that's not bad, it's not gorgeous either, but it's stylish for now and it works...
THE ONLY problem that anyone seems to have with it is, it gets 15 miles per gallon, and it has a small ass 10 gallon tank...soooo...that's the problem

A 2003 BMW M3 retails at the BMW dealership near my house for $47,000...It's got a high-revving 333 horsepower (i think the '03's got a bump, not sure though), anyways, it has a way better cockpit, the seats aren't as grippy though, on the sides, and the ride quality, as far as potholes or realworld traffic is concerned, sucks...I've driven the one at the BMW dealership here, it was white, and fast...but it also costs 12 thousand more...

That's tarriff's for ya'...anyways...I really don't care, and it's because I like all cars equally, but hey, nationalism, it's a *****. 8)

See? All these cars aren't made anymore. America just doesn'y make a decent range of cars anymore. :mrgreen:
hes right muscle died in '73
and your america vs all is BS,
ferrari alone can out perform all your amercan cars, even the s7
enzo < s7
360 modena < corvette z06
even the [censored] F40 will own a viper.any YEAR viper
but then again the gt40 was the ferrari slayer...
but then again the gt40 was designed in the UK
once amercan cars race in F1 and win some championships then u can consider them on top.
otherwise
Ferrar, Benz ,Bmw will be the worlds best

You sure don't know how to use the >/< symbols! You are saying that the S7 is better than the Enzo and the Z06 is better than the 360 Modena!

I already said this, but I'll say it again. America has what? The Corvette, the Viper, Saleen S7, McLaren F1, and the SVT Mustang Cobra. vs ALL? Well, there are Ferraris, Lambos, Spykers, Lotus, Porsches, TVR's, the Ford and Holden Australlian bulldog muscle cars(past, and presently), Jaguar, BMW, Mercedes, MG, Maseratis, Austin Martins, Bugatti, Honda, Nissan, and probably 5 other car manufactuers that I don't even know about that make dozens of cars better, on par, or just below the meeger 5 American cars brought into question. not only that, but hey are all way superior to the REST of the current American engineering. So five examples of reallty fast, really expensive American cars. Big whoop, the rest of ours suck and there are HUNDREDS of cars better than them. So that's my only point really. END! :mrgreen:

Raith, you forgot to add the little cars. The Focus SVT, Mazda speed protege, PT cruiser turbo, SRT-4. All of these cars out perform any forgein car in there price range.

The Corvette, the Viper, Saleen S7, McLaren F1, and the SVT Mustang Cobra. vs ALL?
The McLaren F1 is a british car.

:arrow: Mopar: I'm not sure if the Focus and the Mazda (!) can be considered american cars...

to completely diffuse the situation that i inadvertantly created....
I assume the role of the town idiot

ZING!!!!!!!!
:)

oh yeah, i forgot mazda was japanese. My bad.

The McLaren F1 is a british car.

:arrow: Mopar: I'm not sure if the Focus and the Mazda (!) can be considered american cars...[/quote]

The ford focuas shouldn´t be considered as an american car, it a produc from Ford Deutchland, that ford Usa has used is diferent, but is an european car.

1967-1969, 1978-1981, 2000-2002 Camaro Z-28 (My favorite years for Camaro)
1967-69 Corvette Stingray
1953 Corvette, the first ever American sports car
1955 Ford Thunderbird, I think that's the first year of Thunderbird. Anyways first successful American Sports car.
1971 Plymouth Roadrunner 426 Hemi
You can supe up the 2003 Pontiac Sunfire pretty good for cheap
1974, 1969 Dodge Charger
1969 Dodge Challenger
2005 Pontiac GTO
2005 Ford Mustang
1967-69 Shelby GT500
1966 Ford GT40
2004 Chrysler Crossfire
1969 Dodge Super B
1969 Pontiac GTO
1966, 1972 Chevrolet Chevelle
1969-70 Hemi Cuda
1969, 2002 Camaro ZL1
1967-69, 2000-2002 Pontiac Firebird
1969 Oldsmobile 442
1967-69 Cutlass
Chevrolet Monte Carlos


The Pontiac sunfre 2003 is the uglyes car in USA, the front ande the bac are the wors in the market.

The ford focus shouldn´t be considered as an american car, it a product from Ford Deutchland, that ford Usa has used is diferent, but is an european car.
Yes that's exactly what I meant. It is now a European car.

Who gives a damn, the point is the U.S has damn good cars, the Panoz Esperante, the JdR version of it has a 600 horsepower engine. The Saleen Mustangs are without a doubt the most wild Mustangs around the world, the Mosler I already tossed out there, the Viper is a badass car that'll keep up with a frickin' Lamborghini Murcielago, the 'vette Z06 tops 175 mph (177).
And let's stop downplaying the S7, it has, a curb weight of less than 2900 lbs, the entire car is based on wind tunnel testing, which means it's drag coefficient is low as all hell, it has race-spec floating brakes the EXACT same ones from the ALMS cars and wherever else those bad-boys went, the car has a pushrod V-8 doaling out 550 horsepower and 525 lbs/ft of torque, AT 6500 RPMS!!!!!!! How many production car V-8's do any of you know that put out so much power at such a low rpm that is naturally aspirated??
Yes, many Euro companies make sweet cars, Porsche, Audi, VW, Koenegsigg (damn swede's and there spelling) TVR, Tuscan, (both are really small companies) But, in a land where muscle cars "reign", and imports are shunned, alot of really good cars have come out recently, the GTO, (don't start with "Holden this, Holden that") I know, and Bob Lutz knows it, which is why I think alot of people are upset at it all, anyways, I've completely lost my train of thought so I'll end it with this:

The new Lotus Elise is coming to the U.S.!!! It comes loaded with a 190 horsepower i4, insane handling traits, Porsche Carrera beating acceleration, and a sticker price around $40,000 U.S. dollars...
Know what the best part of it all is???

My parents, have always wanted one, never had one, they're retiring soon, and guess what they're seriously thinking about buying??? hehehehehe...
:D :D :D

TVR, Tuscan, (both are really small companies)
Tuscan is a model of TVR.
The Elise comes from Lotus, and Lotus is a British company.
The truth is that america really has some great cars, but they are very few compared to Europeans.

Raith, you forgot to add the little cars. The Focus SVT, Mazda speed protege, PT cruiser turbo, SRT-4. All of these cars out perform any forgein car in there price range.

Okay, the Dodge has a Mazda engine, the SVT Focus blows(well, the '04 one has an over seven second 0-60 time) the Mazda, as we all established, is Japanese, and the PT-Cruiser turbo? Really? Are you serious? It's 0-60 is just as bad as the 5-door SVT Focus. For 25,000 dollars I'd much rather have almost anything else :P

What was I thinking. "anything else"? That just leaves me open to more riddicule :P I should have been more specific. for 25 thousand or less I'd MUCH rather have:
22k VW GTi VR6(or even the chaper 1.8T)
23k VW Jetta GLI V-6(or the Wolfsburg edition)
23k Acura RSX Type-S
19k Mini Cooper S(pretty sure the "Works" is under 25k as well)
25k Audi A4 1.8T
23k Mazda 6s
17k Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
23k Nissan Altima 3.5
~19k Honda civic Type-R(when they import it)
24k Subaru Impreza WRX

and for a thousand or two more...
26k Honda Accord EX V-6
27k Mazda RX-8
26k Accura TSX
27k Infiniti G35
26k Nissan Maxima SE
26k Saab 9-3 Linear
26k Volvo S60

and my list is this short cause I don't feel like resaerching foreign cars and converting all of their prices(MG's, Peugots, ect.) Chryslers are poor quality and way overpriced!

america makes very few types of performance cars because it simply hasn't a need to. If a person is going to spend 90k on a car, they would probaly buy a E55 or an RS6 or an M5 before they think of the viper. America builds the exact right amount of high end cars. But you guys also forgot some new ones from GM, like the SSR, GTO and maurader. There are probaly more. But you also have to think, you guys are comparing one country (america) to at least 5 (europe). Britian certainly does not make more sports cars than the US. Neither does italy or france. Germany might, but they are close. So this comparison is kind of like comparing a rooster to five chickens (ouch).

[quote="1mic"][quote=Raith83]

You sure don't know how to use the >/< symbols! You are saying that the S7 is better than the Enzo and the Z06 is better than the 360 Modena!
hehe woops
:oops:

you are wrong, your basically going on feraris past and their prestige that is not something u should go on, the S7 and enzo are dead on par with eachother as a wise consumer you would normally take the cheaper one
dead on par...
as a smart consumer...
WEE!
0-100mph
Enzo.......s7
6.6..........8.9
you already know that 1/4 mile stats...
paddle shift vs stick shift?
enzo has better gas mileage, and more fuel capacity, it can also slow down faster then the s-7 (enzo 80mph=188ft, s7=230ft)
as a smart consumer i would buy the ferrari, its not that my facts are biased the ferrari is just BETTER

Who gives a damn, the point is the U.S has damn good cars, the Panoz Esperante, the JdR version of it has a 600 horsepower engine. The Saleen Mustangs are without a doubt the most wild Mustangs around the world, the Mosler I already tossed out there, the Viper is a badass car that'll keep up with a frickin' Lamborghini Murcielago, the 'vette Z06 tops 175 mph (177).
And let's stop downplaying the S7, it has, a curb weight of less than 2900 lbs, the entire car is based on wind tunnel testing, which means it's drag coefficient is low as all hell, it has race-spec floating brakes the EXACT same ones from the ALMS cars and wherever else those bad-boys went, the car has a pushrod V-8 doaling out 550 horsepower and 525 lbs/ft of torque, AT 6500 RPMS!!!!!!! How many production car V-8's do any of you know that put out so much power at such a low rpm that is naturally aspirated??
Yes, many Euro companies make sweet cars, Porsche, Audi, VW, Koenegsigg (damn swede's and there spelling) TVR, Tuscan, (both are really small companies) But, in a land where muscle cars "reign", and imports are shunned, alot of really good cars have come out recently, the GTO, (don't start with "Holden this, Holden that") I know, and Bob Lutz knows it, which is why I think alot of people are upset at it all, anyways, I've completely lost my train of thought so I'll end it with this:

The new Lotus Elise is coming to the U.S.!!! It comes loaded with a 190 horsepower i4, insane handling traits, Porsche Carrera beating acceleration, and a sticker price around $40,000 U.S. dollars...
Know what the best part of it all is???

My parents, have always wanted one, never had one, they're retiring soon, and guess what they're seriously thinking about buying??? hehehehehe...
:D :D :D
i have tons of videos of supras BURNING saleens even the s351
yes like my post above the v12 get more mileage then a v8, FOUR cylinders LESS..

you guys are comparing one country (america) to at least 5 (europe)
Yeah but you forget that america has a surface almost equivalent to europe. America's economy is also almost equivalent to europes, in sheer numbers. (I believe)

and what does that have to do with anything? its 5 tiny guys picking on 1 big guy, the 5 tiny dudes will win for sure

Ok, perhaps you're right.

you guys are comparing one country (america) to at least 5 (europe)
Yeah but you forget that america has a surface almost equivalent to europe. America's economy is also almost equivalent to europes, in sheer numbers. (I believe)
we should have compared it to more countries....
the name of this thread is "American Power vs ALL" isnt it?

Yah, America versus all, thus, anyone can jump in, anyways, the whole point of the thread is simply to say that America has good cars in each segment of "automodom", and people need to stop bashing quality, when it's really not that bad anymore. 8)

It not only the power and the perfotmance that a car can give to yu, you shoul look fot what the brand give with the car, not only metal and paint, it must has une plus to be the best , and to me Ferrari hs so much plus that a all of almos all american brands

You're comparing the car company Ford, to the car company Ferrari?? They're completely different, Ford makes sedans and other boats that are currently residing in my driveway, next to the Ford Mustang, and the compact-sports car, my Ford Probe...

A ferrari is an exotic, built for fun, it's a toy, not much else...If you can afford a Ferrari, you aren't gonna be looking around and saying, "hmm...maybe I need a Mercury Sable, or something too" No, you'll be saying, "hmmm...maybe I'll go buy a Mercedes S-Class, or a Jaguar"

Maybe I missed your point completely, if I did, say so, if not, "Ford versus Ferrari" the COMPANIES are completely opposite...Ford=usable, affordable, daily driver
ferrari=OMGwhatanawesomeTOY! 8)

ferrari=OMGwhatanawesomeTOY!

a toy that breaks easily :lol: :lol:

You're comparing the car company Ford, to the car company Ferrari?? They're completely different, Ford makes sedans and other boats that are currently residing in my driveway, next to the Ford Mustang, and the compact-sports car, my Ford Probe...

A ferrari is an exotic, built for fun, it's a toy, not much else...If you can afford a Ferrari, you aren't gonna be looking around and saying, "hmm...maybe I need a Mercury Sable, or something too" No, you'll be saying, "hmmm...maybe I'll go buy a Mercedes S-Class, or a Jaguar"

Maybe I missed your point completely, if I did, say so, if not, "Ford versus Ferrari" the COMPANIES are completely opposite...Ford=usable, affordable, daily driver
ferrari=OMGwhatanawesomeTOY! 8)
who are u talking to i NEVER said Ferrari is BETTER then ford or vice versa..
i was just comparing the s7 and the enzo
get your facts right

Dude, I'm not talking about you...this is what I was comparing...AND CALM DOWN!!!!!! :!:

and to me Ferrari hs so much plus that a all of almos all american brands

Captain Lento, says that Ferrari is better than Ford, IT BETTER BE!!! For $165,000 I better get handstitched leather, a powerful, and reliable engine, a kickass driving experience...etc...
Ford sells cars for a quarter that price, thus, I should expect less from them...The same goes for other American manufacturer's versus Ferrari...So, there, my facts are indeed quite straight... 8)

You're comparing the car company Ford, to the car company Ferrari?? They're completely different, Ford makes sedans and other boats that are currently residing in my driveway, next to the Ford Mustang, and the compact-sports car, my Ford Probe...

A ferrari is an exotic, built for fun, it's a toy, not much else...If you can afford a Ferrari, you aren't gonna be looking around and saying, "hmm...maybe I need a Mercury Sable, or something too" No, you'll be saying, "hmmm...maybe I'll go buy a Mercedes S-Class, or a Jaguar"

Maybe I missed your point completely, if I did, say so, if not, "Ford versus Ferrari" the COMPANIES are completely opposite...Ford=usable, affordable, daily driver
ferrari=OMGwhatanawesomeTOY! 8)


Of course that the companies are diferent, Ferrari is Ferrari, the legend, and Ford, Chevy and Dodge are for other things, wath i want to say is that in USA there is not a car comapny with the heritage and name to compete with ferrari, i think that the american brands only can satisfy american people, is realy exception when an american car can be a good seller in Europ. but the erupean cars can be a good seller in america, and Ferrari is over very over that a lot if not all the american brands.

its all becasue of marketing, North Amricans allways strive for the "european way." A lot of american companies have a rich heritage but not a rich racing one like Porshce or Ferrari. Ferrari is great company no doubt about that.

Oh yup, that's true, no company in America has the heritage that Ferrari or Porsche does, which I think sucks, America should get into racing...The only car that has racing heritage in the U.S. is the Corvette, and recently at LeMans, NOT THIS YEAR...grrr...anywys....my point is only one american car can have a reasonable heritage, the 'Vette...which is just one against many... :?

Oh yup, that's true, no company in America has the heritage that Ferrari or Porsche does, which I think sucks, America should get into racing...The only car that has racing heritage in the U.S. is the Corvette, and recently at LeMans, NOT THIS YEAR...grrr...anywys....my point is only one american car can have a reasonable heritage, the 'Vette...which is just one against many... :?


YES. :D , tha´t the piont, American´s brand should wake up and try to win and be a world brand,

EXACTLY!!!!

The only American cars that race are small ass manufacturers, Panoz, Saleen, Mosler, Shelby, etc...The bigger companies that race are Dodge, and that's just the Viper, and Chevrolet with the Corvette, personally, I'd like to see a factory backed racing version of the Camaro, ''Vette, Viper, Cobra, and others take on the "big guys" from Europe like Porsche, Mercedes, Audi, Ferrari, and watch all of them at LeMans, or Sebring...That'd be such a good race that I might even travel to see it... 8)

Whatdya' think??

have u guys already forgotten the legendary ford Gt?

The correct name is GT40.

lol i know :lol: :lol: :lol:

I think america has legendary racing history:
Mustangs
Vipers
Corvettes
GT40
Shelby
but then again some cars are euro based:
Mondeo
Focus Rally
Escort

if you listed everyone elses racing history, the list of cars and manufacturing companies would take up two pages. period

The correct name is GT40.

The actual name is Ford GT, to me is one of the best car of america today, because it has great desing, good history and cool engenery, to me it can compete with european cars, only the name but is a great car.

you guys are comparing one country (america) to at least 5 (europe)
Yeah but you forget that america has a surface almost equivalent to europe. America's economy is also almost equivalent to europes, in sheer numbers. (I believe)


Yes, and population, and tech, and other stuff that can be the same as Europ, or the other world

Dude, I'm not talking about you...this is what I was comparing...AND CALM DOWN!!!!!! :!:

and to me Ferrari hs so much plus that a all of almos all american brands

Captain Lento, says that Ferrari is better than Ford, IT BETTER BE!!! For $165,000 I better get handstitched leather, a powerful, and reliable engine, a kickass driving experience...etc...
Ford sells cars for a quarter that price, thus, I should expect less from them...The same goes for other American manufacturer's versus Ferrari...So, there, my facts are indeed quite straight... 8)

I´m not only talking about ford, gm or dodge, america has more companies like other people haved toll, panoz, saleen and others that are almos expensives as ferrari, not only Ford, Gm or dodge are all america

The correct name is GT40.
The actual name is Ford GT, to me is one of the best car of america today, because it has great desing, good history and cool engenery, to me it can compete with european cars, only the name but is a great car.
I corrected him cause he was referring to the Ford GT40, the legendary Le mans winner, not the current GT model.

The correct name is GT40.

The actual name is Ford GT, to me is one of the best car of america today, because it has great desing, good history and cool engenery, to me it can compete with european cars, only the name but is a great car.

I corrected him cause he was referring to the Ford GT40, the legendary Le mans winner, not the current GT model.

sorry, the botha re grat cars..

Wha? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?

buh????? I'm completely lost in my own creation... :shock:

Wha? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? :?: :?: :?: :?: :?


:lol: forgereth, i dont writhe very good english.

Jimmkk29 sometimes i wonder where u get your auto info, the 350Z is a true sports car made for the track, A car priced under 30K that has more power then a porsche is truly astonishing. The nissan Z is one of the greatest cars ever produced. THe 350Z is a car ment for racing and to have fun in, its one of only a few cars that u cna do both in

PLEASE!!! I would never buy such an underpowered, overweight car with no interior room, only mediocre gas mileage, and style that is alright but immediately trumped in lieu of a two-door Infiniti version of the same car (for the same price mind you, now there's a car I would consider.....drop 10 horsepower of your granny ride and put some real options in there......)

A Nissan 350Z is NOT FAST by any means, and if you want a "pimp" 2-door "Z", go with the Infiniti (if you want a modern sports car that is a "Z," go buy a Nissan Skyline 350GT)
That's not a Z but I would surely drive it like one :)

Wow, whats so bad about the Z? It's got more power than the Infiniti model and it's lighter as well. The ride is more harsh because it takes corners better. 350Z not fast? Yeah, and Rally autos are just little toy cars.

LOL a 350Z is a very fast car, and medicore gas milage, only a handfull of perfomrance cars can get 20/26 mpg! and thats form an engine producing 287hp, and over weight? your insane it weighs only 3,188lbs it is not a heavy car, a hevay car is soemthing that weighs 4000lbs or more

hurrah! i'm not insane, someone agrees with me! I was getting scared for a while there... :mrgreen:

no i think 5.0 is insane he thinks 3188lbs and 20/26 mpg are both horrible

no i think 5.0 is insane he thinks 3188lbs and 20/26 mpg are both horrible

No I just think that you should either buy a sports car with REALLY fast #'s instead of one with kinda' fast #'s.......in that price range, the competition offers a wide variety of cars that perform better than the Z in several extremes......I mean you can get something that handles better, something with better 1/4mile #'s, or something just as fast with better gas mileage, more room, and less cheesy plastic inside.....

such as.....? tell me, for $34k, what else can you get thats a true performance sports car, with a killer V-6, RWD, sweet handling, and the killer style of the Z?

Hennessey Viper or Lingenfelter Corvette= Fast. I don't see why you can't include these, because these are no more of a "tuner car" then some of the ones mentioned above.

I don't want to start a European/Japanese Vs. American flame war because that is childish and I am hoping I am not talking to a bunch of 15 year olds. I am a car guy and I basically love all cars(except 2F2F yo!).

Don't say American cars are cheap and have bad handling. Those are just stupid stereotypes. The American car industry has been in a slump lately but they are coming back. Look for the new Z06!!!

such as.....? tell me, for $34k, what else can you get thats a true performance sports car, with a killer V-6, RWD, sweet handling, and the killer style of the Z?

You maybey can buy a BMW, or one Mustang

such as.....? tell me, for $34k, what else can you get thats a true performance sports car, with a killer V-6, RWD, sweet handling, and the killer style of the Z?


You maybey can buy a BMW, or one Mustang

Three little letters GTO...
forget about a v-6, try a V-8, also, 287 horsepower, try 350...and 380 or so pound-feet of torque. It has the interior of an M5...check out the new Road & Track issue...it has a test in it. Also, all of that, for $33,000 in U.S. dollars. 8)